Bill Bowen likes to use the expression "pedophile paradise" because of the two witness requirement. But, don't JW's disfellowship unrepentant sex offenders?
Which religions excommunicate convicted sex offenders?
by proplog2 17 Replies latest jw friends
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hawkaw
They may be dfed or they may, in the case of Vicki Boer only "mark" them and take away their microphone privileges for a few months. And that is only if they "confess" or if there is enough proof to meet the WTS's criteria. All the while they begin to spead rumours about Vicki to the point that they will drive the victim from the congregation.
It is also interesting to note in the Mike Moss case, that the individual is df'ed and then, after things blow over, he was quickly re-instated. Evidence from the elders in court shows that Palmer Gower who raped his daughter enjoyed a much better standing in the Shelburne congregation after the "confrontation" and the really hurtful "removal of microphone privileges" were stopped.
The point Bill makes is that the WTS, in its drive to keep its congregations clean forgot to protect its children and allowed molesters to keep on threatening the congregations.
Hopefully they will change their policies and put their own kids ahead of an organization.
hawk
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hillary_step
I think that Bill's concern is what happens between the offence and the disfellowshipping. The 'two witness' rule allows an abuser to deny the charge, as there is seldom two witnesses to this sort of crime and continue in good standing to abuse again. That is his point. I am sure that you can see that.
HS
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proplog2
Hawkaw:
I KNOW what JW's do. And I realize that excommunication is actually overused by JW's. Also a person could be serving time for an offense and be humbly repentant. But what do other religions do when one of THEIR members is convicted of sex offenses?
We know that Catholic Priests have been protected and shuttled about - but are convicted sex offenders ever excommunicated? Maybe the Catholics are more Christian than JW's because they figure if a person confesses serious sins and then partakes of communion they are fully forgiven.- even pedophiles!
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hillary_step
Propolog,
The Catholic Church and its discipline of excommunication is very similar in end result to the WTS 'disfellowshipping'. It is defended on exactly the same grounds using the same scriptures that the WTS does, though it also acknowledges that the system can be and has been abused, which of course the WTS does not admit to. If one were to examine the ecclesiastical law pertaining to excommunication you would quickly see that the Church should indeed excommunicate its child-abusers but chooses not to do so. It is corrupt for obvious reasons, as many of its priests would then be excommunicated. However, it does not rely on a 'two witness' rule to identify the crime.
The conclusion then is that the Catholic Church should excommunicate its child abusers and does not. The WTS, when it has two witnesses to the crime can choose the DF the person, though this does not always happen.
What you are doing is trying to compare two corrupt systems with a view to showing the superiority of the other, at least that is what I think you are trying to say in this thread. This is a little like comparing a bank robber with a burglar with a view to making a character judgment.
HS
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Celia
It does not matter if the JW sect or the Catholics excommunicate child abusers or not.... as long as the child molesters are not reported to the police and brought to justice, the children this sicko comes in contact with are all in danger. But I see that you said "convicted" child molesters.... I say, prison for life.... Protect the kids.
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proplog2
Hilary:
I have no objection to people fighting for justice. I think it's good that people are being encouraged to go to court for remedies due to personal damage. If they need a support/advocate group that helps them deal with this, fine. What I object to is the blanket accusation that JW's are a "Pedophile Paradise". At best this is hyperbole meant to get attention. Unfortunately those kinds of statements alienate the 6 million JW's who are happy with their organization. Those are the people you ought to be trying to reach. In many cases there are people in the organization who really need help because they have been molested, yet they honestly are affraid of turning people against them. Given the choice between forgiving the offender and leaving the organization they will attempt to adapt. Bowen's use of alarmist language is a red flag to these people and it may scare them off.
Bowen of course has another agenda besides simply helping people who have been harmed. This doesn't take any mind reading. It is quite transparent.
My question is a logical one. Because in the mind of the average JW their organization works hard at removing the leaven.
Personally, I feel that some of the practices engaged in by the courts in dealing with accused Child Molesters is unconstitutional but is tolerated because of hysteria over the problem.
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hillary_step
Propolog,
You introduced the Catholic Church for a reason Propolog, and as I have shown the logic behind your point is flawed.
You also underestimate the effect that the WTS has on JW thinking. Even if Bill Bowen had not made these statements, the reaction of the average Witness to any such accusations would be exactly the same. They would view the whole scenario of child-abusers within the Organization as lies, exaggeration, and just typical comments from a DF'd disgruntled individual. This is what most of the JW's that I have talked to about this matter say and think. Most do not know who Bill Bowen is, did not view the TV programs such as Panorama, Dateline etc., do not know what Silentlambs is and many are in complete denial and start comparing the WTS with the track record of other religions.... What they do know is that any criticism of the WTS from whatever direction must be incorrect if not demonic as the WTS is Gods Organization and therefore it cannot be faulted - the mother of all circular reasoning.
As to personal agendas, well of course people will use this issue to damage the WTS it is naive to expect otherwise, though I cannot comment on the personal agenda, if any, of Bill Bowen. I have never made a secret of the fact that I think Bill needs a decent PR strategy, a level headed Board of members, and a policy that does not include surrounding himself with emotional strategists rather than political ones, but that is just my opinion, with which of course he would disagree.
HS
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amac
Proplog, I understand your point and I have had discussions on this with many witnesses (well at least 10.) I usually say "yes" JWs do a good job of DFing sex offenders (this is not even worth arguing with most JWs as you would have to start using specific examples and their blinders would come up) however most child molesters are only discovered and prosecuted after a professional investigation, so the problem lies in whether or not JWs report suspected sex offenders. Because of years of training and misconceptions by most JWs, they are not sure if they should report. And the society has yet to put in place a policy to correct and cover this. From there I usually go into what the current policy is, and for most of those people got an agreement that it should be updated. That is the kind of pressure I would like to put on the GB, having JWs talk about it and expect the change. That kind of talk will make it to COs and DOs and so on.
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proplog2
Hilary:
I don't really know why I brought up the Catholic Church - except for the fact that they're BIG.
We are probably all in agreement that even the recent adjustments the Watchtower has made WOULDN'T have been done without the spotlight of the media.