England v Ukraine

by BoogerMan 62 Replies latest social current

  • cofty
    cofty
    What does the West get out of it?

    Putin is hurting by his abject failure to sweep through Ukraine as he believed he would. His military weakness has been exposed. Thousands of Russian military personnel - including senior officers - are dead and billions of dollars worth of his hardware is destroyed. Not one American or British soldier has died. Bargain of the century.

    I understand what Ukraine gets out of it - lots of free military hardware costing billions of pounds/dollars.

    It's not like they are putting the weapons in a cupboard and counting them every night like they were gold coins. They are using them to hurt Putin at the cost of Ukrainian lives. Many of them knew as much about combat a year ago as you and I do.

    Let's imagine that in 5 years time, Argentina invades the Falklands. Would Ukraine give us some military hardware and equipment, or help us in some other way?

    Unless Argentina posed a threat to the security of Ukraine probably not.

    Putin and Xi are the main enemies of liberal democracy and freedom. Ukraine is Putin's biggest problem.

  • Simon
    Simon

    It's incredible isn't it how within a couple of years of "regime change" to replace the democratically elected Ukrainian government, the US has a convenient money laundering and proxy war to send their $$$ to.

    And the idiot masses cheer it on, always the fools.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Simon - Am I an idiot and fool because I hold a different view of the cost/benefit of opposing Putin?

  • Corney
    Corney

    I can't believe reading that standing up to the aggressor -- which understands no language other than force -- "prolongs the war".

    And notwithstanding all the bullshit about "Russian land" and "Russian people", most people from the recently occupied regions didn't wait for the Russian army to "liberate" them.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Of course, you get useful idiots like peacefulpete who, having spent decades deriding people as racist and Little Englanders for caring about England's national interest, have now discovered how important national identity is.

    So you seem to be saying you now understand the Ukrainian desire to remain independent. Glad I was useful.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    It was an aggressive move to begin with, we should admit, on Russia’s part to position their homeland recklessly close to so many US military bases.

  • Simon
    Simon
    Am I an idiot and fool because I hold a different view of the cost/benefit of opposing Putin?

    Opposing Putin is all very well, and grandiose, but I think it would be better if we didn't get to having to do that in the current manner.

    Putin is there because of things *we* did. Unless and until people wise up, the same things will keep happening.

    The powers-that-be are happy to see Ukraine decimated and millions killed, if it gives them $$$ and a place to host their bio labs. Meanwhile their propaganda campaign has people cheering it all on.

    I'd rather we hadn't got to this point and I think the people who got us here and who support the people who keep on doing this are to blame and deserve the label idiot.

    So no, you're not an idiot and a fool if you simply think opposing Putin and China is a good idea. But I think you are if you support the entire chain of events that make the current form of opposition necessary.

    We're only here so slime-ball politicians can enrich themselves, laundering money through one of the most corrupt countries in Europe, and so the military industrial complex can make sales. Who in their right mind would support that? (apart from everyone, apparently)

  • cofty
    cofty
    Putin is there because of things *we* did

    I disagree. Putin was always going to bring Ukraine back into 'mother Russia'. Unless the cost is made too high he isn't finished.

    It is beyond doubt that Ukraine is not a shining beacon of democracy and rectitude. It is equally certain that people will profit from the war but Putin must be stopped. Two things can be true at once. World events are not good guys versus bad guys.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    @peacefulpete

    No, you haven't been very useful here.

    Ukrainian national pride is just one aspect to this conflict.

    The sooner both sides meet around the negotiating table the better.

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    Nations and governments will always look to do things that put them at some advantage and make it easier to gain the resources they want or need. And they will always attempt to make their efforts seem humanitarian. Or at the least, they want to claim that they had no other option. They don't care if you see through it, and they are perfectly well aware that the main players see through it. They are doing it for the support of the masses, since that still matters if you want to run a country instead of being executed as a traitor or failure.

    Putin cares not one whit about the pedigree of the people or who the land belonged to. He sees that NATO has grown and pushes up against his borders. Anything he wants or tries to get, NATO will always stand in his way. What to do? Grab up the last remaining bits that NATO has not collected. And Ukraine is rich in many resources and gives him more bargaining chips. And a much better position in the event of war in the future, whether initiated by NATO to rein him in, or initiated by Russia to grab more land.

    NATO sees Ukraine as the last piece that they would need to effectively box Russia in. And having them on the NATO side also means that those resources (oil, natural gas, arable land) are not under Russia's control. A weaker Putin is useful to the West. It can help to weaken China a bit, and they want that as well. It is no accident that there has been a fervent push to get more countries to join NATO as a result of the Russian invasion, and it seems to have paid off handsomely, with Finland (an old enemy of Russia) agreeing to join. I think that alone might be worth the money they are throwing (and will keep throwing) at Ukraine.

    Neither side sees Ukraine from any other angle, IMO. It is an important piece of land, and control of it (or influence over it) makes one side stronger at the expense of the other. The USA does not expect that Ukraine will ever fully pay them back for all of the weapons and money. What the USA is buying is a stronger position in Europe and a weakened Putin/Russia. I think Zelenskyy is smart enough to understand that he's a pawn in a much larger game, and that if he plays his cards right he might walk out of this with his neck intact and the 'undying friendship' of powerful and wealthy nations.

    Politics has never been anything different. When we study the actions of powerful nations over the course of history, we always see the same thing- they do anything and everything they can to get what they want, while trying to put forth a good face to the world. What do they care that we will finally learn what they did, a hundred years later? They had a lot of power and they got to use it, and even to be cheered as they did so.

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