by Jesika 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Personally I think you should tell him that you're angry and what you're angry about.
Big Tex, don't you get it? She said she doesn't believe in god. She's not going to talk to an imaginary something just because you need to believe in it. I also find it ofensive that you say she created god in her image. Excuse me. Are you saying she's like the dub god? Your insensitivity makes me want to puke.
Chris I think you are totally misreading what Big Tex is saying here. I dont know if you know this but Big Tex has known Jesika for along time, and has always given her good advice and cares alot for her.In turn she is very close to him and his family and they have shared many private things, so I would think of all people on the forum, Big Tex and Cruzan probably know Jes better than anyone.
I will say this,,,,,,, I know where Jesika is coming from, I.. always as a dub just knew that God and I had a special relationship. When I left I lost that. I am not saying this is the case, but maybe Jesika does believe in God somewhere deep inside.......maybe she doesnt even realise it, but if not and she is a firm believer there is no God, I stand corrected. I just know in my case , there are times I do beleive in God,,, other times that I don't know what to believe .
For Jes, to feel so strongly about this song, makes me think she does have some issues with God, and that she is angry, if she was totally convinced there is no God, 99% sure even, then maybe these song lyrics wouldnt hurt her so bad. Right now she feels betrayed... Notice she said,,,,,,,,,,,,,"I dont want to worship a God like THAT", refering to the way the GOd is portrayed in the song.
If she ever felt that God was on her side, or got over the WT Jehovah God, she might want to worship a God who is more loving than the God in this song. The fact that she said , she didnt want to worship a God like that, makes me think she is saying, but I might worship one who is NOT like that. JMO
Big Tex, don't you get it? She said she doesn't believe in god. She's not going to talk to an imaginary something just because you need to believe in it. I also find it ofensive that you say she created god in her image. Excuse me. Are you saying she's like the dub god? Your insensitivity makes me want to puke.
Well good morning to you too. Gee, this is my first attack. My flame cherry has been popped.
Okay Chris, can we talk? Let's look at what I said and then let's look at what you heard.
Big Tex, don't you get it?
Why yes I do. I've known Jesika since she was 4 years old. I know her family and her experiences, which is why I wrote what I did and in the way I did. I know how harsh and abusive her father was to her. I know he taught her about an angry, vengeful God who keeps score and is never satisifed. I've talked with her father, and her grandfather, and uncles many times on this very subject. Have you? You on the other hand, don't get it. It is clear you are bringing your own issues to the post which colors how you read what I wrote. In effect, you have me saying something I am not, and being someone I am not.
She said she doesn't believe in god. She's not going to talk to an imaginary something just because you need to believe in it.
Clearly she doesn't believe in God. My suggestion was based on an exericse that I learned when I was in therapy. It sometimes helps a person to channel their anger (and even find out other ancillary issues they have feelings about) by actually talking out loud to their abuser; but the abuser is not in the room. I did this many times in talking with my father and mother. I pretended they were sitting on the sofa and I was just talk, sometimes I would tell them horrors of my childhood, sometimes I would tell them how sad I was, BUT it helped me get some long buried feelings out in the open; some of them surprised me. And that was my point to Jesika. It is irrelevent whether she believes there is a God or if he is listening, the point of the exercise is to verbalize some long buried feelings. Her family put some heavy duty shit on her, it doesn't belong to her and I was sharing a coping tool that can help.
Whether she follows my suggestion or not doesn't matter to me. I was simply throwing it out there. But what I do find interesting is again how your own antipathy towards religion/spirituality/God (not sure which one since I don't know you) comes leaping out at me. "Need to believe"? I actually laughed out loud on that one.
I also find it ofensive that you say she created god in her image.
Wrong chief. Didn't say that. You know, it helps to actually read what someone writes before you criticize them. Here's what I said:
Some people say that we create God in our image.
There is a philosophy that does indeed make this statement. I don't know if I agree with it completely, but I did, and still do think it might apply in Jesika's case. Can you not see how a child raised to believe in a demanding, spiteful God might actually feel resentful? And don't you think it is also possible that some of her anger towards God might also be about her father? It is a psychological fact that children's view of God often mirrors that of their father, or primary care giver. I do think we all bring our own issues, perceptions and experiences to the table with regards to God and spirituality.
Also remember Jesika started this thread and highlighted some lyrics that mirror the feelings I have mentioned. As I told her, it is no wonder she feels the way she does. I also said I think you are right in rejecting that God. But I guess you kind of skipped over that, didn't you?
Again, I was making a personalized response to someone I know very well. If you are offended by that statement then I submit that's about you and your issues rather than the statement itself. I can't control how you respond or feel when I am talking to someone else.
Excuse me. Are you saying she's like the dub god?
??? I have no idea what you're talking about here Chris. I've read through my post several times and I just can't see where you're coming from on this one son. I can say that I was giving Jesika my view of spirituality and God. And yes I do realize I was talking to someone who doesn't believe. But notice how I used the words "If this is true", and "I want". I don't claim to know for a fact that God exists, or the Bible is 100% accurate or anything else. I have been consistent, when discussing this subject, as saying I choose to believe, just as you choose not to believe. The existence of God cannot be definitively proven, or disproven by anyone. I would never presume to tell anyone that just because I believe there is a God, that automatically becomes fact for the entire world. I left behind that type of arrogance with Jehovah's Witnesses.
Your insensitivity makes me want to puke.
Coming from you Chris, I'll take this as a compliment.
It's clear that you are angry. What it is about, I don't know. But you are bringing your own issues into this thread and interjecting them into my post. Chris, you're seeing what you want to see and hearing what you want to hear. If Jesika doesn't want to listen to what I had to say, fine. It doesn't hurt my feelings and won't damage our relationship one bit. But I also know her well enough to know that she won't go off half-cocked and try to make me into someone that I am not. I object to the tone of your post as well as your "conclusions". Now then, if you want to reply, then do so in a calm and rational manner and this time, read what I write.
Peace,
Chris Scott
Gee, this is my first attack. My flame cherry has been popped.
Woohoo! A flamed thread! Congrats BigTex...these can be fun!
Love ya,
Andi
"Pass the popcorn please."
gcc2k, I like that song by XTC myself. I never thought of it as an anthem, though.
Dear God
Dear God,
hope you got the letter, and...
I pray you can make it better down here.
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer
but all the people that you made in your image, see
them starving on their feet 'cause they don't get
enough to eat from God, I can't believe in youDear God, sorry to disturb you, but... I feel that I should be heard
loud and clear. We all need a big reduction in amount of tears
and all the people that you made in your image, see them fighting
in the street 'cause they can't make opinions meet about God,
I can't believe in youDid you make disease, and the diamond blue? Did you make
mankind after we made you? And the devil too...Dear God, don't know if you noticed, but... your name is on
a lot of quotes in this book, and us crazy humans wrote it, you
should take a look, and all the people that you made in your
image still believing that junk is true. Well I know it ain't, and
so do you, dear God, I can't believe in I don't believe inI won't believe in heaven and hell. No saints, no sinners, no
devil as well. No pearly gates, no thorny crown. You're always
letting us humans down. The wars you bring, the babes you
drown. Those lost at sea and never found, and it's the same the
whole world 'round. The hurt I see helps to compound that
Father, Son and Holy Ghost is just somebody's unholy hoax,
and if you're up there you'd perceive that my heart's here upon
my sleeve. If there's one thing I don't believe init's you... Dear God.
- XTC
06-May-03 05:16 May 6, 2003
SUGGESTION TO CHRISVANCE: Drink a cup of espresso BEFORE answering posts. It helps one's perspective at that hour of the morning.
Nina
lyin eyes - thank you for you comments. I don't agree with what you said, but you were able to express your thoughts without being condescending.
Big Tex - I'm sorry I expressed my anger inappropirately. You're right; I have a lot of issues with the god thing. I really don't understand why a person can't express his disbelieve in god without a lecture from a believer. I'm sure you didn't feel like you were lecturing and maybe I read too much into what you said, but I have talked to many believers who are troubled by the fact that I don't believe. Of course, this probably brings up all the shame heaped upon me by my JW family for being who I am.
It does seem that the very nature of believing in a loving god can make the believer condescending. She/he supposely has something the unbeliever doesn't have and should be pitied. Like I say, maybe I read too much into what you said, but this attitude is common among some believers.
May you have peace.
Chris, just reading back over Jesika's thread to get some background here.
I am a non-believer/athiest. I hang out on here, chat with some of the participants of this forum: some believers in god / some that do not believe in god. We all have a common thread, which I know you know:
Our experiences as former Jehovah's Witnesses.
Personally, I have not been flammed or ridiculed for my lack of belief in god by anyone on this forum. One of my favourite people on here, my JWD forum grannie is a huge believer in christ/god etc., but she and I get along wonderfully. We bond over our commonality of experience as former Jehovah's Witnesses.
As for Big Tex and Cruzanheart: you couldn't find two more compassionate, accepting and warmer human beings. Really. When I read Big Tex's reply to you, honestly, he was very cool about it, and didn't take it upon himself to rip you to shreds. He would never do that. All I can say is, I've gained some on-line support from both of them through their words and messages, and I know if they could impart some kindness to you, I'm sure they would. They too know all too well the many pains of having been Jehovah's Witnesses.
Chris, I know from things you've shared on here, and in messages to me, you have some pain. I know.....and there are things that people on this forum do not know about you.
When I first found a forum of XJWs, I will admit, I went off like a firecracker and got hot under the collar more than a few times; yes, sometimes foolishlessly - making an ass of myself. My behaviour told others more about me than I thought.
Here, on Simon's forum, you can bet your drawers, someone will/can relate to your story and experience.
It's OK to rant, oh man...let'r rip - it's healthy man, but it'd be good if you felt like it, to remind us of your story, or re-post it so we have a better understanding and context of who Chris Vance is.
We don't bite, but we are human, and well...we react to things too.
But overall, this place is a place for someone like you/me/others, to hang out, and if you feel safe and comfortable enough: to share your pain and anxieties.
We all have a story to tell.
I wish you nothing but the best Chris. I'm glad you posted a reply to Big Tex, that was in-order and you'll be respected for it.
I am a non-believer, but I know one thing, I believe in this forum and the good that it has contributed to those in the on-going healing post-JW. I have benefitted greatly.
Take care Chris.
So Lord, I see you grinnin'
Must be grand always winning
How proud are you being able
To gather faith from fable
As another song written by Dan Barker puts it:
"Never apologize, never explain"
We don't bite
Well, not unless I'm asked.
Chris
Listen, I'm sorry to hear you are hurting. Truly I am. I certainly don't pretend to know what it's all about, but if there is anything I can do to help out let me know.
I do agree with your statement about believers. I've been on the receiving end of quite a lot of that attitude myself. So we at least have that in common. It's no fun, and if in any way I have imparted that attitude to you then please accept my deepest apologies. The one thing I swore when I left the Witnesses was I would never sit in judgment on someone else. I would feel miserable if I ever caught myself acting like one of the condesending Witnesses we both have encountered.
I believe one thing in this life we need to do is figure out what we're about and what we're here to do (well okay two things). It took me most of my 41 years to figure that out for me. I hope you're in a good place Chris and I hope you can find a little peace.
Take care,
Chris
