Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 71 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @EasyPrompt

    In fact, God Himself is a mystery, since the finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite God. The fact that the Trinity is a mystery does not mean that what is in Revelation cannot be understood by reason. The doctrine of the Trinity summarizes the biblical data: there is only one God, but at the same time there are three persons, who by nature are what only God can be, and who do things that only God can do. God is one God in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is not meaningless, it is just beyond reason, unprecedented in the created world: God bless you. it does not resemble human ideas (cf. Acts 17:29). Otherwise, the term "Jehovah" or "theocratic organization" is not in the Bible either. 1 Cor 14:33 does not speak about the being of God, but about the need for church order (i.e. he is the God of peace).

    Read this: https://justpaste.it/9jizw

  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt

    Dear aqwsed12345...I went to your website link, but if God was really a "mystery" then why did Jesus say even a kid could understand what God is like? Jesus said God is a Father. A kid understand what a Father is...

    "So calling a young child to him, he stood him in their midst and said: “Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens."


    A young child is humble.


    Fancy "overeducated" people are usually not very humble.


    If Jesus and Jehovah could only be understood by fancy overeducated people, then why did Jesus say to become like a little child?


    "When the chief priests and the scribes saw the marvelous things he did and the boys who were shouting in the temple, “Save, we pray, the Son of David!” they became indignant and said to him: “Do you hear what these are saying?” Jesus said to them: “Yes. Did you never read this, ‘Out of the mouth of children and infants, you have brought forth praise’?”"


    A person doesn't need a fancy theocratic education to understand that God is the Father and that Jesus is a different person, namely, God's Son.


    We can praise Jehovah and praise Jesus even if we are simple. Even kids can understand the difference between a Father and His Son. It's not a mystery.🥰 It's close to home.


    "But the righteousness resulting from faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ that is, to bring Christ down, or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.” But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your own mouth and in your own heart”; that is, “the word” of faith, which we are preaching." (Romans 10:6-8)


    The reason the ransom sacrifice was a sacrifice was because Jesus was such a Beloved Son to Our Father. That's what made it a sacrifice. Because it Hurt Him to Give It.💔❣️


    He gave it because He loves you just as much. He sees Your Potential. The sacrifice was Worth It to Him, for Each One of His Kids.💝


    "For the promise is to you and your children, and to all those who are far away, to all those whom Jehovah our God may call to himself.” (Acts 2:39)


    "God is Love." That He gave His only-begotten Son proves it.💖🙂

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Vidqun

    "as you might have noticed, I interpret the Scriptures quite literally." - I don't think so, the JW biblical "hermeneutics" is not accidentally called the "Scripture sandwich", or "knight's jump" exegesis (jumping from one place to another in the Scripture like a knight moves on a chessboard), without regard to the context of salvation history. Just as stones are extracted from a quarry, revelations are drawn from the most diverse places in the Bible and - mostly without regard to context and the circumstances of origin - are freely combined.

    "On the one hand, I view the soul as a living person (or animal). Adam became a living soul when he started breathing (Gen. 2:7)." - You may have heard or read about the broad nuances of the Hebrew term "nefesh", but basically your denomination wants to derive the doctrinal description of anthropology from the earliest Old Testament meaning of the word "nefesh". Any Catholic theology book will tell you that "nefesh" in Genesis 2:7 does not mean soul, which is what we specifically mean by "soul". This meaning also appears clearly in the Bible, although it is a fact that it is mainly in the later books.

    The body-soul dichotomy appears quite concretely, for example, in the first half of Matthew 10:28. In Matthew 10:28, the psyche obviously does not mean either the whole person (because it is about his physical death) or his (eternal) life, since it is not denoted by the term 'psyche', but by the term 'zōē aiōnios' in the New Testament. Read THIS.

    And it remains unanswered why, if Israel's original faith was annihilationism, why the translators of the LXX translated 'sheol' as 'hades' and 'nefesh' as 'psyche', when these words clearly have an after-life meaning in the Greek language. And then the writers of the New Testament adopted this terminology and then proclaimed the Gospel in the Greco-Roman world, without saying a word about these converted pagans abandoning their faith in the after-life in its entirety, since there is supposedly nothing until the resurrection.

    At that time, the Greeks understood two things by the word 'hades'. Hades, the god of the underworld, one of the sons of the god Zeus, and the realm over which the god Hades ruled, i.e. the Underworld, where, according to their belief, the souls of the dead go. This was the Greek world of faith, the Greeks believed in this. My question is: why did the Jewish translators who first translated the Hebrew scriptures into Greek translate the Hebrew sheol into 'hades'? Hehehe, good question, right? Perhaps the Watchtower-like answer could be that the translators were not inspired, and apostate copyists inserted the same words into the New Testament. I am already waiting for a 'Brand New World Translation' to be published, in which, in addition to the 237 mentions of Jehovah, the ten mentions of Sheol will finally regain their "rightful place"...

    You should probably read a chapter from a book on biblical anthropology about the word "nefesh" to see that this word in the Old Testament signified throat, neck, desire, life, a complete person - and indeed the soul, in its usual theological sense. You all have a great battle against those scripture passages where the word cannot mean a complete person, because it is about a person's breath. Such are Exodus 23:9, Job 19:2, Isaiah 53:11, and many others that I could copy from my source, Hans Walter Wolff's book 'Anthropology of the Old Testament'. These cannot be pinned down to mean the "complete person", but rather a constituent part of the person. Obviously, in many places 'nefesh' means the whole person, but these do not absorb the ones I mentioned, nor several key places in the description of the soul, such as 1Thes 5:23, Hebrews 4,12. Therefore, neither nefesh nor psyche exclusively mean the complete person.

    Ezekiel 18:4 - Here, the Hebrew term 'nephesh' obviously does not mean what Christian theology means by the soul, and thus by definition does not teach the death of IT. Such phrases in the Bible: "may my soul die with the death of the righteous", are Hebraisms. The Scriptures describe the origin of man not philosophically, but illustratively, and therefore attribute the נָפֶשׁ (nefesh, the principle of life manifested in warm breath) to both man and animal. The nefesh often replaces the reflexive and personal pronouns in Hebrew; thus such statements should be understood: "my soul shall die" = "I shall die". With regard to the terminology of the Old Testament, it is not new, it is even included in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (363):
    "In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person (Cf. Mt 16:25-26; Jn 15:13; Acts 2:41) But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him (Cf. Mt 10:28; 26:38; Jn 12:27; 2 Macc 6 30.), that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.""
    The term "onoma" (=name) plays a similar role in the New Testament, e.g. Acts 1:15: "the number of names" = "the number of people".
    Anyway, although JWs often accuse us of taking our concept of the soul from Plato, in fact, the Platonist understanding of the soul was condemned as heresy by the Catholic Church in 1312 at the Council of Vienne, where extreme monist and extreme dualist conceptions of man were condemned.

    The historical fact is that in the time of Jesus, with the exception of the Sadducees, the Jews believed in the afterlife, and Jesus did not reprimand them for this, and in an interesting way he told a parable in which the rich man suffers in a fiery place. If a JW used such illustrations in his preaching work today, I would certainly not praise him for it. Because maybe he meant it symbolically and not literally. However, it is impossible that these symbols will only be "deciphered" by JWs after 1900 years and for 1900 years everyone will be forced to explain this as if this parable has a realistic basis.

    There is a good article about the many uses of the word "soul" in the Bible: https://www.oodegr.com/english/dogma/diafora/enoies2.htm


    "And is that not what the memorial is all about, the sacrifice of Jesus' body and blood?" - "Memorial" is a JW jargon, in Christianity it is called the Eucharist, and it is not only an annual event, and the majority of believers are not inherently excluded from it.


    "And the fact that nobody recognized the resurrected Jesus, is also an indication that he rose with a different body." - It's enough for me to quote again:

    He was not recognized for several reasons, all of which are indicated by the contexts.
    -John 20. It was early in the morning and still dark, (vs. 1), and Mary was not expecting to see Jesus alive. Nowhere does the text say Jesus appeared to Mary as a gardener. It was Mary's mistake, not Jesus' appearance.
    -John 21:4-12. Jesus was on the seashore, while the disciples were at sea in a ship. It was early morning. The disciples were 200 cubits (approx. 100 yards) from the land. Fog would have been raising from the water at that early hour obscuring the disciple's view.
    Jesus' subsequent actions were those of someone possessing a body.
    -Luke 24:16. The eyes of these disciples were "holden," or "veiled."
    Jesus did this so they could not recognize Him because though He was the Living Word and had taught them for over three years He now wanted to direct their attention to the written Word.
    When they saw from the scriptures that Jesus must suffer and be raised again He then unveiled their eyes so they could recognize Him.
    The implication is very plain if Jesus had not "veiled" their eyes they would have recognized Him. If He was in "another form" there would have been no need to veil their eyes at all.
    1 Corinthians 15:38 proves that the resurrected body is the same own body, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 speaks of the "change" of this original body.

    "In my mind the word “sacrifice” means the death of the victim." - That's what I said too, that's why Jesus' sacrifice already fully "finished" on the cross when he died, not when God allegedly vaporized his body in the grave, especially since the Holy Scriptures does not say a word about this or the allegd necessity of it.

    ""See references to "Sons of God" .." - At most, your references prove that "sons of God" can mean angels, but they do not prove that it also actually means angels in Genesis 6:2." - It does not disprove it either." - The burden of proof is on you, since if you look at the commentaries, Christian and Jewish exegetes almost unanimously interpreted it as I wrote. By the way, logic also supports this, since angels are pure spirits who are able to appear visibly (with God's permission), but this is only apparent, they cannot concieve children.

    "So where do the violent Nephilim ("giants"), "the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown" fit in then? (Gen. 6:4 ESV)" - The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the "sons of God" (men from the tribe of Seth) went in to the "daughters of men" (women from the tribe of Cain), and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, known from ancient times The Hebrew word "Nephil" does not necessarily mean a giant—though according to Numbers 13:33, the Nephilim could have been tall in stature—but rather generally refers to a violent, wild, unruly person. The Scipture here is talking about those heroes (heroi), whose deeds were later so colored and glorified by the (pagan) myth, - and precisely against their respect, it wants to emphasize that their wickedness hastened the coming of the flood.

  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt

    @aqwsed12345...


    "Higher" math in the Bible isn't more complicated. It's more simple.


    "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

    And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah.

    "For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

    So my ways are higher than your ways

    And my thoughts than your thoughts."


    Love is the Higher Way. It's common knowledge.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=524Tf0dNRNw


    It doesn't take more education to understand the Father and His Way. It takes More Love to understand Him.


    (Even a kid can understand love and the nature of the God of Love.)


    "In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved."


    Jesus is the Way to understand the Father because Jesus' way was Love. He demonstrated what the Father is like because he's just like his Dad.

  • aqwsed12345
  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt

    aqwsed12345, I appreciate that you are trying so hard - please, I know this isn't the first time I've mentioned this to you, but I am not a member of the Watchtower. They kicked me out when I told on bad elders because it's against their WT theology to tell on bad elders. I obey God as ruler rather than man. My faith is not based on Watchtower doctrines, my faith is based on the Bible, common sense, and the direction of holy spirit, which includes love. Most Jehovah's Witnesses today don't study that old Trinity brochure you linked anyway. I don't know where you get your info on "how to preach to exJWs" but perhaps it's a little outdated?


    Jesus' example in the Bible proves that God is not a Trinity. We look at Jesus in the gospels and see that he was a solid personality. He wasn't some kind of triple-minded dude.


    If Jehovah was some kind of "3-in-1" thing, then wouldn't Jesus, as the reflection of the Father, also be some kind of "3-in-1" thing? And then, mathematically speaking, wouldn't those "reflections" keep mirroring back and forth into infinity exponentially increasing forever?


    The truth is way simpler. Jesus was not complicated. He reflected Our Father, who is also not complicated.


    The Bible says that man is made in God's image. Jesus was a perfect man. Jesus didn't have "three essences." He got along with simple people, like fishermen and prostitutes and ex-cons. It was the scribe-type people who didn't understand Jesus, because they made things too complicated and they couldn't believe God's Son would be uncomplicated and easy to be around.


    "At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him. Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for yourselves. For my yoke is kindly, and my load is light.”"

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @EasyPrompt

    Even if you are no longer a member of the Watchtower denomination, you still hold Watchtower doctrines. Why don't you start revising them?

    You work with 'a priori' preconceptions: you logically start from the assumption that God/YHVH only denotes the person of the Father, so if the singular speaks in the first person, as a person separate from him, to Jesus, this already proves that Jesus cannot be God. However, such usage is nothing more than WTS jargon.

    When the WTS thinks of God, Jehovah, of course, it automatically thinks of the Father. It is true that the name of the God of Israel is Yahweh or Jehovah. It is also true that Jesus called the Father God and God his Father. But of this, the formula Jehovah / God = the Father is only logical for the Watchtower Society. The divine name Yahweh or Jehovah does not denote only one person, but the Godhead itself (theotes, Col 2:9), in whom three persons can be identified. The name of the second person is "the Son" (ho húios), his human name is "Jesus", and his mission is "Christ." The third person does have a name, since there is only one "Holy Spirit" in the Bible, so it is often simply "the Spirit" (to pneuma). Christians worship the same God with the same name (Jehovah / Yahweh) as Jehovah's Witnesses, they only claim that Jehovah God is more than Father: Son and Holy Spirit as well.

    Talking about "Jesus and Jehovah" is a Watchtowerite, JW theological jargon, and of course can only be interpreted in this context.

    In order to emphasize antitrinitarian teachings, the divine name YHWH is limited to God the Father only. This is why, for example, if a Christian says "Jesus is Jehovah", then the JW brain understands that "Jesus is the Father", which is obviously ridiculous not only for JWs, but for theologically correct Christianity. With the use of words such as "Jehovah and Jesus" also force their Arian theology, so that the antitrinitarian dogma is embedded in the JW even at the linguistic level. Cf. Newspeak.

    But of course, if we expand the wording, it becomes understandable. We do not say, for example, that Jesus is "equal to Jehovah", but that the divine name YHWH is not the name of just one person, namely the Father, but rather the deity itself, in which three persons can be identified.

  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt
    "Watchtowerite"

    ???

    Is it "Watchtowerite" to believe that Noah existed? Or that Daniel lived in Babylon? Or that there was a Flood? Jehovah's Witnesses believe in those things too. Does that make them solely "Watchtowerite doctrine"?


    aqwsed12345, you're grasping at straws, my friend.


    Speaking of straws..."First remove the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to remove the straw from your brother’s eye."


    I have not shared any "teaching" with you other than what is found plainly in the Bible.


    "doctrines. Why don't you start revising them?....You work with 'a priori'preconceptions...jargon..."


    If you page back through this thread, aqwsed12345, you'll see a rafter's load of unscriptural "doctrines", "preconceptions" and "jargon" that you yourself have posted, along with all the website references included.


    "Check yo'self," aqwsed12345, "before you wreck yo'self." A lot of what you post comes from the writings of imperfect people rather than from the Christ.


    "Then he also told them an illustration: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Both will fall into a pit, will they not? A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly instructed will be like his teacher."


    If your "teachers" are Hilery Hoosey-whats-is and John Obermanly or whoever and Robert Bowman, you're not going to get very far, let alone help anyone else get into "the light".


    "Follow the Christ."

  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt

    Dear aqwsed12345 - it is very apparent that you love God, you love Christ, and you desire to give a witness.


    Here is what Jesus said about giving a witness...


    "...for a witness...do not be anxious beforehand about what to say; but whatever is given you in that hour, say this, for you are not the ones speaking, but the holy spirit is..." (Mark 13:9,11)


    ...and again...


    "...It will result in your giving a witness. Therefore, resolve in your hearts not to rehearse beforehand how to make your defense, for I will give you words and wisdom that all your opposers together will not be able to resist or dispute..." (Luke 21:13-15)


    aqwsed12345, you obviously love the scriptures. Why not do as Jesus commanded and not cut-and-paste somebody else's words? Prepare your heart by continuing to embrace God's Word and continuing to pray for holy spirit as you surely are anyway and keep trusting the Christ to do what he said he'd do and give you the words when you need them.


    "...that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father..."


    "Whoever speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but whoever seeks the glory of the one who sent him, this one is true and there is no unrighteousness in him."


    "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever." He said he'd be with us all the days until the conclusion of the system of things. You can trust him.🙂He's the Faithful Witness.


    "...from whom in the way of flesh comes the Christ, he who is over everything, God blessed forever—Amen!" (Romans 9:5)

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    נֶפֶשׁ, meaning of nephesh:

    1. throat

    2. neck

    3. breath

    4. living being

    5. people

    6. personality

    7. life

    8. soul as the centre and transmitter of feelings and perceptions

    9. dead soul – deceased person, corpse. See HALOT.

    ψυχή, (‘life, soul’) It is oft. impossible to draw hard and fast lines in the use of this multivalent word. Gen. it is used in ref. to dematerialized existence or being, but, apart fr. other data, the fact that ψ. is also a dog’s name suggests that the primary component is not metaphysical, s. SLonsdale, Greece and Rome 26, ’79, 146-59. Without ψ. a being, whether human or animal, consists merely of flesh and bones and without functioning capability. Speculations and views respecting the fortunes of ψ. and its relation to the body find varied expression in our lit.

    1.life on earth in its animating aspect making bodily function possible

    a. (breath of) life, life-principle, soul, of animals and humans.

    b. the condition of being alive, earthly life, life itself.

    c.by metonymy, that which possesses life/soul

    2.seat and center of the inner human life in its many and varied aspects, soul.

    3. an entity w. personhood, person. See BDAG.

    Some Lexicon nuances on the noun “nephesh” and “psyche,” not so broad at all. That’s one of the reasons why I avoid theology books if I can help it. Lots of personal opinions in there. I rather find out for myself. By the way, the first Christians were Jews, so they would have adapted Greek terminology to their worldview as contained in the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures. I can see why theologians do not like Ezek. 18:4ff. Doesn’t fit their theology at all. Sounds like the new generation theology of the Watchtower. To fit our theology, we change the meaning of the word. Same with gene therapy vs. vaccine. Change the definition for marketing purposes. The following makes it clear, you love God with everything you’ve got.

    And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. (Matt. 22:37 ESV)

    Sheol: Wasteland, void, underworld. Realm of the dead. See HALOT.

    Hades: Orig. proper noun, god of the nether world, ‘Hades’, then the nether world, Hades as place of the dead. See BDAG. Obviously the Septuagint translators had to find equivalents and that’s as close as it gets.

    The burden of proof is on you, since if you look at the commentaries, Christian and Jewish exegetes almost unanimously interpreted it as I wrote. By the way, logic also supports this, since angels are pure spirits who are able to appear visibly (with God's permission), but this is only apparent, they cannot concieve children.

    You speak of the burden of proof. I don’t find it in your next statement. I don’t see the logic either, especially when it contradicts the Scriptures. Pure spirits with the ability to take on a human form (cf. Gen. 18:1ff.). These were angels in human form, able to eat and drink. This ability was taken away from the fallen angels (demons), which makes sense. That's why it became necessary for them to invade and occupy human or animal hosts.

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