2 Peter and Jude and 1 Enoch

by Parallax 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Parallax

    Hello. I'm new to the forum and I have a question about what was said in a 16-year-old thread at this forum. A poster by the name of Leolaia said...

    The author of 2 Peter did not recognize that Jude 6 was an allustion to 1 Enoch (just as he did not realize that Jude 9 was an allusion to the Assumption of Moses and thus rephrased it incoherently in 2 Peter 2:11), or he may have objected to the Enochic reference (just as Jude 14-15 was omitted in 2 Peter 2). In either case, the author overlooked the Enochic allusion and instead recognized the passage as an allusion of Hesiod and thus embellished the passage from Jude with an allusion to Hesiod's Tartarus.

    TARTARUS - please explain why it is in the Bible (jehovahs-witness.com)

    However, from 18 years ago, she said...

    The Jewish Hellenistic traditions that 2 Peter is dependent on equates the angels that sinned with the Titans and their place of bondage as Tartarus. As I showed in an earlier thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/64432/993359/post.ashx#993359), 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 are explicitly dependent on the first-century B.C. apocalypse 1 Enoch which elaborated considerably on the fallen angel traditions. Enochian allusions run throughout the two Christian passages in the NT.

    Tartarus in 2 Peter 2:4 (jehovahs-witness.com)

    Therefore, which is correct? The author of 2 Peter and Jude did not realize that the verses that they wrote were allusions to apocrypha literature, or they did realize that their verse were allusions to apocrypha literature? Thank you.

  • BelisemDeBelimakom

    From Youtube Channel of NathanH83

    History of the Apocrypha in a nutshell:

    The Apocryphal books were written before the time of Christ. Most of them were written in Hebrew by Jewish authors. At least 1 was written in Greek. They were included in the Hebrew Jewish Bible, and the Jewish Greek translation (used by Greek-speaking Jews).

    The Jews took these books out of their Hebrew text very early on, about 90 AD or so. But the Christians still had them in their Greek copies (Christians were given the Bible before the Jews took them out).

    So the Christians still had them in their Bible. But because the Jews took them out, then some Christians very early on wanted to take them out also, because they believed the Jews that they were never there to begin with (a lie). But the church required them to be left in. 3 church councils in the 300's required them to be left in the Bible. Jerome wanted to take them out, but the church wouldn't let him.

    It wasn't until the 1500's when the Protestants took them out of the main body of text and placed them into their own section called "Apocrypha" (first time in history the Christian church ever did this).

    Then in the 1600's Protestants in America started to print foreign language bibles without that section. But those bibles were few in the start. English Bibles had to include it by law.

    In the 1700's, during the Revolutionary war, that was the first time an English Bible in America was printed without the Apocrypha (Britain forbade omitting that section in English Bibles up until then).

    Then in the early 1800's Protestants convinced Bible societies to stop using money to print Bibles with that section.

    By the time it was 1885, the King James Bible was no longer printed with the Apocryphal section, and the Apocrypha disappeared altogether from Protestant Bibles.

    Then in the 2000's Christians like me realized we've been majorly ripped off.

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo

    Yet, if you present this historical reality to JW's, you will be treated like you are making it all up.

  • Diogenesister
    BelisemdeBelimakom Wow! I had no idea! Thank you.
  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    The Muratorian Fragment lists 22 of the 27 NT books as canonical. It dates to 170 AD. The document is called a fragment because portions of the document have been torn off. The well known biblical scholar Westcott states that the missing books were probably included initially because the document is torn where they should have been listed.

    The answer to defeating the heresy of JW's is the Word of God itself... not more heresy.

    There are many, many ancient Jewish history books and historical Dead Sea Scrolls that are fascinating to read. Enoch is one. The Book of Jasher is another. Both books are either quoted or are mentioned by name in the bible. The Gnostic heretics wrote a number of works by the same names though. So be careful. The gnostic versions of ancient books are easy to determine, but you do have to be aware of them and be careful.

    You can pick up the Book of Jasher by Ken Johnson on Amazon. It is sort of a cliff notes version, is a good read, and will fill in a lot of the early details of humanity written about in Genesis.

    Ancient history books are not "lost books of the Bible". That is a marketing ploy. They were never considered inspired. And as such, believers read them with a grain of salt noting that they may not have been preserved exactly as originally written.

    Other books referenced in the bible:

    1. The Book of Wars, Num. 21:14
    2. The Book of Jasher, Josh. 10:13
    3. The Chronicles of David, 1 Chron. 27:24
    4. The Book of the Kings of Israel and Judah, 2 Chron. 27:7; 35:27; 36:8
    5. The Book of the Kings of Israel, I Chron. 9:1; 2 Chron. 20:34.
    6. The Words of the Kings of Israel, 2 Chron. 33:18.
    7. The Decree of David the King of Israel, 2 Chron. 35:4.
    8. The Chronicles of Samuel the Seer, 1 Chron. 29:29
    9. The Chronicles of Nathan the Prophet, 1 Chron. 29:29
    10. The Book of Gad, 1 Chron. 29:29
    11. The Book of the Prophet Iddo, 2 Chron. 13:22
    12. The Words of Shemaiah the Prophet, 2 Chron. 12:15
    13. The Deeds of Uzziah by Isaiah the Prophet, 2 Chron. 26:22; 32:32
    14. The Book of Jehu, 2 Chron. 20:34
    15. The Record book of Ahasuerus, Esther 2:23; 6:1
    16. The Book of Remembrance, Mal. 3:16
    17. The Book of Life, Dan. 12:1; Phil. 4:3; Rev. 20:11; 22:19
    18. The Book of Judgment, Dan. 7:10; Rev. 20:12
    19. The seven-sealed book, Rev. 5:1, 13.
    20. An angel’s book, Rev. 10:2

    The Book of Gad is also available on Amazon by Ken Johnson. It was a really good read as well.

    Testimony of the 12 Patriarchs is not referenced in the bible but is also available. It was considered by skeptics to be written by Christians several hundred years after Jesus lived because the theology is essentially Christian and not Pharisee. When a portion was found in Qumran with a BC date, it changed that view for many.

  • truth_b_known

    Reading a menu helps us decide what food to order, but it does not bring nutrients the body needs as does the food.

    A map is a great tool to help plan a journey, but it is not the journey.

    There are many, many interesting things one can discover about the scriptures of Abrahamic faiths. I am still learning new ones. I recently discovered that there is evidence that the book of Jude may be a plagiarized work copying from 2 Peter. 2 Peter itself may have been a fraudulent writing as the Apostle Peter had already been executed before its writing.

    Keep researching, but don't forget to take time to smell the roses.

  • ThomasMore

    Truth_b_known - very insightful. I will read the books again to see if I can pick up on the plagarism. The compilation of the Bible books continues to interest me even after many decades of study. I do not think that WTC has ever provided accurate statements of their own originality - just regurgitated what was popular. As a result, much of what I believed followed their unscholarly narrative. Maybe it will make no difference as I take my last breath, but I still want to know.

  • BelisemDeBelimakom

    Early Church Fathers on Apocrypha/ Deuterocanonical Books


    If they did all they can to remove/ban Apocrypha, Jasher and Enoch etc. from the Bible, then it is worth all the efforts reading those books and come to a conclusion (whether they are inspired or strengthens faith) by one's self. WT corporation also, directly and indirectly, rejects those books. This is yet another motivation to read them. The muslims are right when they say, the Bible is corrupted: seen the list of removed many books and altered/removed verses.

    Other recommended books to deepen Bible knowledge that "fill the blanks":

    The Book of the Bee

    Edited and translated by E. A. Wallis Budge [1886]


    The Book of the Cave of Treasures

    translated from the Syriac by E. A. Wallis Budge [1927]


  • Phizzy

    Welcome to the Forum Parallax !!

    I think it is great that you are reading the Posts of the truly great, erudite and Scholarly "Leolaia" ! When I first joined here, it was she who helped to add to my Education, in many ways, opened my eyes to the truth about the Bible, and its real place in Literature, and explained SO much.

    She spurred me on to study more deeply the whole of the Bible, as a serious Student, with an open mind, having thrown away my "J.W Specs" that make a believer approach the Bible in a childish, and ignorant way.

    You will have many hours of joy and illumination if you read as many of her Posts as you can !

    Please tell us a little of your story, without revealing details that will identify you , if you prefer, Happy Reading !

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