Religious freedom in peril?

by Kent 7 Replies latest jw friends

  • Kent
    Kent

    Religious freedom in peril?

    European actions alarming, experts tell Senate panel
    By Lee Davidson
    Deseret News Washington correspondent

    WASHINGTON — Belgium considers The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a "dangerous cult." France may this week pass a law some say could jail Sunday School teachers of many sects. Germany and Austria are campaigning against "new religions."
    Experts, including some from the State Department, told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Tuesday those are signs of how, even in Western Europe, religious freedom is under attack. Worse, other countries are copying the examples and tactics.
    Sen. Gordon Smith, R-Ore., chairman of the panel's Subcommittee on European Affairs, said the examples show "a disturbing trend in a few European countries to actively target (religious) organizations."
    He complained, for example, that Belgium had a list of "dangerous cults" that "would shock Americans." He noted that some included on it are the LDS Church, the Amish, Seventh-Day Adventists, the Assemblies of God, other Pentecostal churches and Jehovah's Witnesses.
    Smith, who is LDS, said, "I can't imagine such a list existing in any Western country. We remain concerned and feel (constrained) to speak out on behalf of all these faiths." He said Belgium has recently improved treatment of some groups and praised it for that.
    Still, "Discrimination is official and often blatant" there, testified Elizabeth A. Clark, associate director of the Brigham Young University International Center for Law and Religion Studies. She prepared the testimony with the center's director, W. Cole Durham Jr.
    "Members of listed groups have experienced discrimination in employment and schools, police surveillance, inability to rent facilities for meetings, and loss of child custody and visitation rights," she said.
    Meanwhile, Smith said he is even more concerned about a bill the French Senate will consider, and likely pass, later this week. It was previously passed by the lower house.
    Smith said he fears that bill could "convict Sunday School teachers in a number of churches" because it vaguely outlaws "mental manipulation" by sects. It also allows dissolving groups if leaders commit two or more crimes.
    Clark said some other countries are looking to copy that French law.
    "There are already reports that Hong Kong's chief executive is looking to the French legislation as a model for a law to ban the Falun Gong movement," she said.
    Assistant Secretary of State Michael Parmly also said, "Poland, the Czech Republic, Romania and Hungary are considering similar legislation. In some cases, French officials are actively promoting the 'French model' of regulating religious activity."
    Clark said that law is worded so vaguely that it could "potentially cover (and ban) any religious activity such as proselyting or religious education. After all, most education and persuasion, whether secular or religious, could be described as 'techniques designed to alter someone's judgment.' "
    Clark said Germany and Austria are also among countries that have officially reacted against so-called new religious movements, creating agencies to investigate and keep tabs on "sects and psychogroups."
    Parmly said, "We are concerned that such policies are becoming institutionalized in some parts of Europe and may have the effect of appearing to justify restrictive laws elsewhere, such as Russia, central Asia and even China."
    Parmly said the United States believes "that a government that fails to honor religious freedom and freedom of conscience is a government in danger of not fully recognizing the priority of the individual over the state."

  • JAVA
    JAVA
    He complained, for example, that Belgium had a list of "dangerous cults" that "would shock Americans." He noted that some included on it are the LDS Church, the Amish, Seventh-Day Adventists, the Assemblies of God, other Pentecostal churches and Jehovah's Witnesses.

    I agree with Sen. Gordon Smith, R-Ore (well, sort of) because I'm shocked more religions are not on the list!

    --JAVA
    ...counting time at the Coffee Shop

  • VeniceIT
    VeniceIT

    Well wouldn't it be great to see them locked up hahhahah!!!ohhh no more perscution, but wait we're not the only ones being persecuted, hold up wait a minute, it's supposed to be just us, why are they throwing us in with these cults. hmmmm I wonder, ohh no couldn't be, hmmmm perhaps, OMG JW's are a CULT ohh say it aint so!!

    Venice

  • sf
    sf

    Hello Kent,

    It's good to "see" you. Thank you for the "update". Hope you are well these days.

    The article states :"Clark said Germany and Austria are also among countries that have officially reacted against so-called new religious movements, creating agencies to investigate and keep tabs on "sects and psychogroups."

    >> "...officially...creating agencies to investigate and keep tabs on..."

    Now yesterday Tally posted requesting how to search DOJ files to dig up more "dirt". I say, there has got to be more than just "dirt"; if in fact, their are now, in place, agencies investigating only the jws, along with other agencies investigating other "sects and cults".
    So, how to we find it? How do we start? And who is the agency investigating the WTBTS? This is all so fascinating for me, and I'm very interested in this topic.

    Hugs to you Kent and I'll try to catch you in the chatroom sometime.

    Scally (adventurous class)

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken
    France may this week pass a law some say could jail Sunday School teachers of many sects.

    Ah, the ubiquitous “some say.” (Norm wrote a wonderful article about “some” as it appears in Watchtower literature. Perhaps he will post it.) When I see “some say” combined with the poignant image of Sunday School teachers possibly going to jail, I detect an attempt to influence my opinion before I even know the facts.

    I decided to look for the French bill in question. I found it at: http://www.multimania.com/tussier/loi6.htm

    I also found an article discussing the ambiguities of the term, “mental manipulation”: http://www.multimania.com/tussier/rev0104.htm#28a

    My French leaves much to be desired, but here is a rough translation of some parts of the article that interested me.

    Ginny

    The Ambiguities of the Concept of Mental Manipulation

    Le Temps, April 28, 2001, by Patricia Briel

    Can one be mentally manipulated? . . .

    . . . the concept of mental manipulation is far from achieving unanimous acceptance. Some think that it should be part of the judicial arsenal. Others think that it does not exist, and that the individual remains responsible for his acts until the end.

    In the last few years, some European countries such as France, Belgium, and Italy, judging that the legislation in force had become insufficient to fight against cults, began to consider the introduction of an offense of mental manipulation. The French bill About-Picard, adopted in June 2000 by the National Assembly, thus envisages the creation of an offense of mental manipulation, defined as follows: ". . . within a group which pursues activities having as their goal or as their effect to create or to exploit the psychological or psychic dependence of persons who take part in these activities, to exert strong and repeated pressure on a member, or to use some suitable technique to deteriorate one’s judgment in order to lead one, against one’s will or not, to an act or an abstention which is gravely harmful to the individual."

    . . .

    In Geneva, the Department of Justice and Police and Transport thinks of the creation of a definite offense in a similar way. For the lawyer François Bellanger, president of a group of Genevan experts who considered the question, "Mental manipulation is a reality. But it is true that the subject is an extremely difficult one to regulate. It is necessary to distinguish between daily mental manipulation, because we all are manipulated to varying degrees (by publicity, for example), and criminal manipulation. For the latter to take place, one needs a repeated and systematic physical and psychic action on others with the intention of weakening one’s capacity for judgment or placing a person in a state of dependence.”

    . . .

    According to Roland Campiche, director of the Observatory of Religions at the University of Lausanne, "A cult does not exist without the approval of its disciples," by which he means that a cult does not exist without free and voluntary adherence. The sociologist denies the existence of mental manipulation: "The American experts who studied this concept concluded that it lacked substance, and that the individual remained capable of understanding while he was engaged in a cult. That said, one cannot disregard the exploitation by the cults of a momentary weakness of a person. But beyond that, individual responsibility is still involved. We live in a society where individual responsibility is strongly valued and displayed. So why would people not also be responsible [for their actions] in the field of religion?"

    Daniele Hervieu-Leger, sociologist of Religion at the School of Higher Studies in Social Sciences in Paris, is of the same opinion: "From a legal point of view, the offense of mental manipulation incriminates practices for which it is impossible to determine at what time they take effect. In this debate, one too often forgets, when one speaks about the victims, that they are individuals who made a choice. Initially it is believing subjects who act."

    In a recent book, the sociologist protests against the theory of manipulation, which "postulates that the individual who chooses to enter a cult exerts, in fact, no autonomous will."

    Jean-Luc Barbier points out that certain cults mislead followers by not clarifying their intentions from the very start. "A person does not freely choose to be swindled, or advance that end. Sometimes when I read that the victims to some extent were looking for what they got, that makes me furious. That’s the same as affirming that girls who wear miniskirts and who are raped were looking for that as well."

    While he does not deny the responsibility of the individual who enters a cult, he does, on the other hand, judge that that this is small compared to that of society, which does not provide enough information about the danger of cults. Rather than the creation of an offense of mental manipulation, he would rather see an increased effort at prevention.

    [Edited to correct those nefarious quote tags.]

    [Edited again to change "sect" to "cult," in accordance with popular current usage in France, according to the following site.]

    In fact, the derogatory word in French is not 'culte' (the literal translation of 'cult') but 'secte'. The latter word may literally be translated as 'sect' but rather plays the same role as the English word 'cult'. In fact, the French word 'secte' has today two very different meanings. Books from sociologists of late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries are still republished, where the word 'secte' is used, without any derogatory meaning, simply to identify small denominations or groups that are not (or not yet) regarded as part of the mainline by the majority churches. On the other hand, for the general public 'secte' is rather used, in the sense of the 1996 parliamentary commission, to identify a dangerous religious (or, rather, 'pseudo-religious') movement using mind control techniques. As the noted historian and sociologist Emile Poulat accurately remarked about the Pentecostal Evangelical Church of Besançon, that this church 'may be a "secte" in the sense of Weber [an early German sociologist of religion]; it is certainly not a "secte" in the popular and parliamentary sense of the term.' Yet, Evangelical and Pentecostal Churches are easily labelled as 'sects' in the popular sense of the term, that is 'cult' in contemporary English.

    From: http://www.iskcon.com/ICJ/5_2/5_2liberty.htm
  • sf
    sf

    Hello again,

    I just read this related post over on "good news reporter". Thought you'd be interested in the commentary of the author of the post.

    You can find it here, by scrolling down a bit when the page comes up: http://goodnewsreporter.tripod.com/index.html

    Scally

  • chasson
    chasson

    >France may this week pass a law some say could jail Sunday School teachers of many sects

    More Scientology's propaganda. In fact in this law, the attorney must
    show the "state of subjection" . He must show how far the pressure
    was made on the believer.
    The definition of the law is that the belivier must be " in a state of subjection psychological or physical resulting from
    serious or reiterated pressures or techniques suitable to deteriorate
    its judgement "

    We don't want a town like Clearwater in France. Sorry.

    Bye

    Charles

  • fodeja
    fodeja
    Germany and Austria are campaigning against "new religions." Experts, including some from the State Department, told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Tuesday those are signs of how, even in Western Europe, religious freedom is under attack. Worse, other countries are copying the examples and tactics.

    Huh?! To claim that Germany and Austria are "campaigning against new religions" is just bullshit. There certainly is a tendency to favor the traditional churches, in Austria especially the Catholic Church. For instance, the WTS does not have official "church" status, which brings some autonomy and tax benefits. Some years ago, and largely unnoticed by the general public, an Austrian government department released a brochure which listed a couple of "new religions" and their particular beliefs. It contained some veiled and unspecific criticism of cult-like organizations in general, but otherwise it was a rather dull piece of paper, written in dry language. Nevertheless, some Witnesses got all hysterical about it. The publishers were actually told to brace for a wave of persecution. Of course, nothing happened, since pretty much nobody gives a damn about the Witnesses or any other religion these days. There is no such thing as a campaign against new religions, not even remotely!

    I guess those so-called experts (who probably couldn't even find half the countries they're talking about on a world map) are simply parroting whatever the friendly lobbyists told them.

    In my not-so-humble opinion, *no* religion should be granted *any* form of special legal status simply for being a religion. If that is considered persecution, so be it ;-)

    f.

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