Are humans simply intelligent animals?

by JH 41 Replies latest jw friends

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Because the drawings show what the animals looked like when the drawings were made. Check for the dates of drawings like you refer to. Then go and read a book on evolution and check the dates in there. Then realise that your point is invalid.

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Oh, that's right - prehistoric man... couldn't draw. It just happened, one day... out of the blue. UGH!

    Red Herring; ignores the fact the ‘point’ they had made had been disproved, and makes of the point remark regarding development of art. Suggest you don’t go there until you’ve been round a museum and seen how art developed over history and pre-history.

    Funny, though: human skulls and skeletons always seem to look like HUMAN skulls and skeletons... and ape skulls like APE skulls. With the exception, of course, of those times when "science" finds an unusual or deformed ape skull they can't explain and so SPECULATE that it HAS to be human... or an unusual or deformed human skull... and SPECULATE that... well... ALL humans of the time must have looked so (versus some tribal member who was ostracized from the rest purely BECAUSE of such deformity... many primitive people thinking such was a curse... "by the gods"... which would explain why they always only find ONE... and not a tribe of 'em... and then, its always way out in the boondocks of whatever continent they find it on...)

    Utter drivel; you must know more about the fossil record than this suggests. Some finds are unique, even if it is for a time. However, very often there are geographically widespread selections of fossils dating to the same period with roughly the same features. More unique finds can be placed in between or after or before know populations due to detailed analysis. Whilst this sometime turns out wrong, there is nothing to break the validity of the generally accepted origin of man; evolution. As religion hasn’t got it right in tens of thousands of years since someone decided ‘Shaman’ meant not getting your hands dirty, evolution with all of its two hundred years NOT can be expected to be a young science. But the fossils are there and the theories fit.

    And well, of course, since THEY (scientists) say so... it must BE so. (And yet, some of these same ones... and their followers... chide people who follow religious science... for putting their belief in a written, illustrated, recorded history... as being followers of myths and tales... while scientists tend to use those very same writings, illustrations and records to support their findings. Can we spell "h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e-s"?)

    Things that make you go "hmmmm"....

    This is meaningless to me. What do you mean?

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

    Again, your point is invalid. We have observed cases of speciation taking place around us.

    And yet, the new species is STILL of the same GENUS. Heck, we've even cloned sheep! But a sheep... is STILL a sheep. Now, when they start cloning rabbits into, say, deer... THEN you've got an argument. (Why rabbits and deer? Because although a different SPECIES... they originate from the same GENUS. So, of course, it should be NOTHING to have a little rabbit, say, over time, "evolve" into a moose, yes?). I'm waiting...

    I could probably come up with a statistic to illustrate how unlikely it is a new GENUS will pop up in any one year. The fact it is not observed is meaningless. A speciation is but one small step, given the right selection pressure, to a new genus. We have the evidence in the bones; please don’t do the ‘there are no intermediate fossils gag’, it won’t work, there are and if you think there are not hit the books.

    If you’re making a big thing about ‘PROOF’, where is yours? In fact, define 'PROOF'.

    "Proof," would be TRUE evidence, not that which is speculation or contrived.

    Contrived? The mouthpiece for the Lord God of Armies uses the word CONTRIVED without realising the irony? And TRUTH. What is your truth?

    At least, that is my definition for purposes of this discussion. Now, MY 'proof' is in earthling man himself: what you see now held up against what has been written, illustrated and recorded about him... then. No change. You mention timeframes. Okay, MY timeframe is the recorded history of man, whether from the Hebrews, the Sumerians, the Chinese, the Africans, the Aborigines, Native Americans... what have you. All have pretty much the same recorded history, at least in terms of timeframe, give or take a couple thousand years. Now YOUR timeframe... has none. You got something to show me from a million years ago? No? A hundred thousand years ago? No? Ten thousand years ago? No? Hmmmm...

    Your argument is that if there wasn’t someone there to record it, it didn’t happen. My argument is that that is a load of tosh.

    I said why: "science cannot fathom that which it cannot prove empirically..." You do remember that folks... no, let me be specific... SCIENTISTS... were CERTAIN that the earth was flat, don't you? And that man could/would never fly? That the earth was the center of the universe and the sun revolved around it? That all animals were dumb (and I don't mean "mute")? You remember what SCIENTISTS thought BEFORE understanding tetonic plate movement and BEFORE understanding the formation of the solar system and BEFORE understanding that the universe was expanding, etc., etc., etc.?

    To say that science has never been wrong... is to say that the WTBTS has never been wrong. Both contain more "new light" that the entire universe itself can hold.

    Yes, science can not prove any thing remotely identifiable as a god doesn’t exist. We won’t go there, it’s an old one and we know the answer, you can’t prove that something that doesn’t exist doesn’t exist. However, religionists cannot prove god. People might have an individual deistic faith that coincides with the religion they practice, and feel they have some personal validation of the existence of god. But the neither a religion itself, nor any of its believers can prove the truth of that internal validatioon or some other external proof of god's existence to someone. I might believe in an invisible purple kangaroo, but I couldn’t make you believe in a invisible purple kangaroo. The best I could do was to make you believe I believed in an invisible purple kangaroo.

    So the fact that scientists have been wrong sometimes is irrelevant, as religionists have, using the same rules, never ever been proved right.

    Be careful... because IF you knew your science, you would know that more scientists believe in God than don't... more surgeons and physicians do than don't... that in fact the greatest among these do... and simply refrain from comment on the subject based (1) on their faith, and (2) their inability to explain what cannot, from the sole point of science BE explained... which is, to me, quite wise, give their respective professions.

    Aristocratic fallacy/Argument from authority. I don’t care if little green mice believe in god and the great wangdoodle doesn’t. I’m saying there is no proof for god and a lot of proof is there to support a naturalistic origin. You don’t disprove that, you just say, oooo, but he believes in god. Colour me unimpressed.

    But if by "religionists" you are meaning ME... you are in total error: I do not believe in religion, I do not support religion, I do not apologize for religion... and would be quite happy to see it go. For all it is to ME... is a means by which deceitful people mislead otherwise good and well-intentioned people... into following them and their beliefs... versus the One who gave his life so that we would follow him... and him only. Which One condemned religion.

    Good for you. Forgive if I’m wrong, but don’t you claim to have some sort of hotline to god? Or am I confusing you with someone else>

    Provide one Biblical proof that shows that god would be unprovable in the modern age.

    By "science", and since we've included it, by "religion"? Sure! Certainly! In fact, I'll give you a few:

    Matthew 13:13-15; no. doesn’t say god would be unprovable

    Jeremiah 5:21; no. doesn’t say god would be unprovable

    Ezekiel 12:2; no. doesn’t say god would be unprovable

    Mark 4:12; no. doesn’t say god would be unprovable

    John 12:40 no. doesn’t say god would be unprovable

    Pardon me, but don’t you think what with sending his son and having dead people run around a world capital and Red Seas parting and all that happening all that time ago like people SAY it did, if there was going to be ZERO proof of god in the modern age, it is one, kind of convenient and two, something they would of mentioned (don’t come on with that ‘will pass away scripture’ either), and three, illogical, and four, unreasonable.

    Remember you have to base your answer on the basis that god is love and desires that none pass away.

    He is, in fact, QUITE provable.

    I’m waiting. So has humanity. For a long time. Is it okay if we breath?

    Provide explainations of why our sexual biology is incompatible with Biblical moral codes

    Now, here, I would have to advise you to speak... for yourself. Just because YOU may not be able to control yourself doesn't mean EVERYONE can't. Personally, I don't necessarily agree with your assertion, as I know MANY people who adhere to the "code" (which is their right to do so, if they so chose. It is not their right, however, to impose it upon others...)

    If a man is away from his regular sexual partner for a few days, even if he masturbates or has sex with another person, when he has sex with his partner again will ejaculate far more than usual. The Bible says god wants us to be monogamous. Our sexual biology is clearly developed on the assumption that whilst you’re away someone else might be mowing the lawn, thus the excess of ejaculate to try and overwhelm any other guy’s wrigglers. Shall we do homosexuality and twin studies nest? If the Bible doesn’t even know how we are made to work, then it isn’t written under inspiration.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    (First, my apologies for taking so long to respond - Actually, I did respond with this about a week ago... but the post didn't take and I didn't have the strength at that time to retry - the fonts are "crazy" and I just can't get into fixing them right now - sorry)

    Now... dearest Realist… peace to you!

    AGuest, you seem to venture into a field you don'T know too much about...so be careful!

    Perhaps, dear Realist… perhaps…

    i assume abbadon was talking about the timeframe....the oldest human drawings are some 10-30.000 years old...but you would need drawings that date back millions of years to see a difference in fauna and flora.

    Actually, that was my point: in what way have we “evolved” from such “oldest human drawings”… and are we to assume that drawing just started that that point… that for MILLIONS of years… man didn’t know how to scratch a piece of charcoal against a rock, that one day the “light” went on and “Grub” said, “Ugh! Look, Grunt! Me make mark on rock?!” LOLOLOLOLOL! Okay, yeah…

    Skeletons can be dated...that is one can determine how old the bones are.

    I absolutely agree! AND… carbon dating is precise. So… where are the million year old skulls? Okay, nevermind. Let me ask you: where are the ones PROVING that man evolved from apes, even if they’re only, say, 5,000 years old? Where is the PROOF?

    the skulls that do not look human are much older than the oldest human skulls found.

    Or… maybe they don’t look human… because they are NOT human! (And folks talk about my “blind” faith!)

    it is extremely unlikely that only such deformed skulls survived if there was a human population back than already.

    Who said ONLY such deformed skulls survived? I am saying that it’s only the deformed ones that are found… way out from any CLUSTER of primitive fossils (and folks WERE exiled, you know)… that they wish to tell you and me are what ALL humans looked like. They find ONE skull… and so goes the ENTIRE human race of that time. I ask you, IF there was an entire human race of folks with such skulls… why is it that they always only find ONE? Where’s the rest of the “gang”?

    And yet, when they DO find a “gang,” the skulls are ALL pretty much human skulls… save the sundry dog or other animal skull... and all LOOK like human skulls! But then, what do I know? LOL!

    scientists interpret findings. it is not an ideology per se ... but rahter the most logical explanation as to how things occured.

    I beg to differ with you, slightly, if I may, and say the “most logical”, based on understandings and knowledge AT THE TIME… yes? (Think, “new light”!)

    how do you define a genus?

    Pretty much the same as Oxford and Webster’s…

    we have the archeological findings....which date back billions of years.

    You exaggerate. We have ROCKS that date back billions of years. Nothing else goes back that far.

    your (that is written human history) history dates back only about 7000 years. way too short to make any conclusive statements about long term geological or biological processes.

    “My” history is not “human history” nor did I say it was (please read what I WRITE!) I only alluded to the fact that people who put their faith in human history, as it is written, are derided for it, although they have some form of RECORDED history… and “science” derides these, whereas many times (most even), scientists speculate. You know: the pot calling the kettle “black.”

    PS: sorry again about the woman issue from above...i wasn'T serious in my original post! i knew what you meant.

    I am glad to know that you knew what I meant… and there truly is no need to apologize again. Truly!

    Dear Abaddon, the greatest of peace to you!

    Red Herring; ignores the fact the ‘point’ they had made had been disproved, and makes of the point remark regarding development of art. Suggest you don’t go there until you’ve been round a museum and seen how art developed over history and pre-history.

    Since I ignored nothing, as nothing was proved, I must disagree with your accusation of "red herring". In addition, I have just recently been “round a museum”… quite a few, actually… and I have seen how “art” developed… as well as language and historical recordation… and earthling man... over history… and pre-history. Recently, and over some time, actually. My conclusion would be the same.

    Utter drivel; you must know more about the fossil record than this suggests. Some finds are unique, even if it is for a time. However, very often there are geographically widespread selections of fossils dating to the same period with roughly the same features. More unique finds can be placed in between or after or before know populations due to detailed analysis. Whilst this sometime turns out wrong, there is nothing to break the validity of the generally accepted origin of man; evolution. As religion hasn’t got it right in tens of thousands of years since someone decided ‘Shaman’ meant not getting your hands dirty, evolution with all of its two hundred years NOT can be expected to be a young science. But the fossils are there and the theories fit.

    While I must agree that fossils dating from same or similar periods are found spread out geographically… I think that YOU forget that such fossils are… primarily plankton in nature, plants, small to tiny animals, limestone, etc…. OR reptilian in formation. I do not think your statement is accurate, however, with regard to HUMAN fossils... and that is MY argument.

    As regards religion getting it wrong, I absolutely agree (but methinks you aren’t listening to that – ah, well!) I also believe that science has its own set of flashing “new light”, too. The fact that “this sometimes turns out wrong,” would lend credence to that belief, methinks.

    ME: “And well, of course, since THEY (scientists) say so... it must BE so. (And yet, some of these same ones... and their followers... chide people who follow religious science... for putting their belief in a written, illustrated, recorded history... as being followers of myths and tales... while scientists tend to use those very same writings, illustrations and records to support their findings. Can we spell "h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e-s"?) Things that make you go "hmmmm"....”

    YOU: This is meaningless to me. What do you mean?

    ME: Please see my comment to Realist, above.

    I could probably come up with a statistic to illustrate how unlikely it is a new GENUS will pop up in any one year.

    Of course! Who's asking you... or any other scientist to? But, can you give me one where it would pop up in, say, a 1,000 years? 5,000? 100,000? 1,000,000? WithOUT human interference/manipulation? With ANY of them backed up by TANGIBLE, EVIDENTIARY proof? And scientific speculation doesn’t count…

    The fact it is not observed is meaningless.

    Now, see... that's EXACTLY what my side of this entire argument is about! Did you see what YOU just wrote? Wait… hold on… say that again. And then, LISTEN to what you just said: “The fact that it is NOT observed… is meaningless.” And yet, people who believe in God… in a spirit realm… whether with the Bible as a basis... or not... are to be ridiculed. You do n't see the HYPOCRISY in that statement? Hmmmm…

    A speciation is but one small step, given the right selection pressure, to a new genus. We have the evidence in the bones; please don’t do the ‘there are no intermediate fossils gag’, it won’t work, there are and if you think there are not hit the books.

    Oh, wait! So books ARE to be believed as a source of what is TRUE! Is THAT what you’re saying? If so, then why ridicule those who put their faith in a BOOK, one that supposedly has a tangible, recorded history contained in it? Can you spell…

    Contrived? The mouthpiece for the Lord God of Armies uses the word CONTRIVED without realising the irony? And TRUTH. What is your truth?

    Truly, I do not know if the “mouthpiece for the… God of Armies”, His Son, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH would use the word “contrived.” I did, yes. And MY “truth” is that One, just as he himself said he is – John 14:6

    Your argument is that if there wasn’t someone there to record it, it didn’t happen. My argument is that that is a load of tosh.

    That is not my argument! MY argument is that those who have NO record shouldn’t really point fingers and ridicule those who DO! It's hypocritical! True, something could have happened that was not recorded. And I am absolutely in agreement with the fact that there are some things recorded did not happen (as recorded) – Jeremiah 8:8

    But some things DID happen… and WERE recorded. Thus, MY position is that NEITHER science… NOR religion… have it exactly right and so one should not deride the other for their respective positions. For to do so is hypocrisy. But, in your aim to “sell” your argument, you have not “heard” a word I have said. Ah, well…

    Yes, science can not prove any thing remotely identifiable as a god doesn’t exist. We won’t go there, it’s an old one and we know the answer, you can’t prove that something that doesn’t exist doesn’t exist. However, religionists cannot prove god.

    And if you would condescend to go back and read my post, you would know that that is EXACTLY what I said… along WITH… neither should go about ridiculing the other… as NEITHER can PROVE their respective position. Both point fingers and NEITHER can PROVE their position. So, until either CAN… both should cease. THAT is my position.

    People might have an individual deistic faith that coincides with the religion they practice, and feel they have some personal validation of the existence of god. But the neither a religion itself, nor any of its believers can prove the truth of that internal validation or some other external proof of god's existence to someone.

    I absolutely agree. I differ from these, however, in that I do not BELIEVE in religion... which I stated very early in this discussion... nor do I put my trust in t he Bible.

    I might believe in an invisible purple kangaroo, but I couldn’t make you believe in a invisible purple kangaroo. The best I could do was to make you believe I believed in an invisible purple kangaroo. So the fact that scientists have been wrong sometimes is irrelevant, as religionists have, using the same rules, never ever been proved right.

    Frist, true, YOU couldn’t make me believe. But the purple kangaroo could! Do I NEED you to make me believe it? Not at all! The best YOU can do is tell me it exists... based on YOUR truthful knowledge of its existence... and not that told to you by someone else. A nd then, it’s up to me to find out if what you say is true or not, yes?

    And, second, in our instant argument, the FACT that scientists have been wrong “sometimes” is not anymore irrelevant than the FACT that religionists have been right “sometimes”. True, both are not very great instances (scientists being wrong; religionists being right)… but NEITHER have it exactly right so that they can dismiss the other. BOTH should be dismissed by those who do not put their trust in either… when it comes to existence of God and in what form, manner, etc. , and find out from God Himself, through Christ. Which is the only "Way" to do it... and w hich is my argument

    Aristocratic fallacy/Argument from authority. I don’t care if little green mice believe in god and the great wangdoodle doesn’t. I’m saying there is no proof for god and a lot of proof is there to support a naturalistic origin. You don’t disprove that, you just say, oooo, but he believes in god. Colour me unimpressed.

    And, yet, I disagree that “there is a LOT of proof” to support a naturalistic origin... and that there is “NO proof” for god. I DO agree that RELIGION can’t prove His existence… and that science cannot prove His non-existence. And BOTH want you to trust what they say...

    Good for you. Forgive if I’m wrong, but don’t you claim to have some sort of hotline to god? Or am I confusing you with someone else

    (Golly, but your "tone" has changed, hasn't it?)

    Let me ask you: since when is religion required for one to have a relationship with God? And second, is there not only one who has a “hotline” to God… and is it not THROUGH that One that all others must approach? And did not that One DECRY religion?

    Matthew 13:13-15; no. doesn’t say god would be unprovable Jeremiah 5:21; no. doesn’t say god would be unprovable Ezekiel 12:2; no. doesn’t say god would be unprovable Mark 4:12; no. doesn’t say god would be unprovable John 12:40 no. doesn’t say god would be unprovable

    Actually, my dear one, they do. Read them again, please, and see for yourself. For they absolutely do say so… for whom, and how and why.

    Pardon me, but don’t you think what with sending his son and having dead people run around a world capital and Red Seas parting and all that happening all that time ago like people SAY it did, if there was going to be ZERO proof of god in the modern age, it is one, kind of convenient and two, something they would of mentioned (don’t come on with that ‘will pass away scripture’ either), and three, illogical, and four, unreasonable.

    ZERO proof? You are in error. Truly. There is CONSIDERABLE proof; it is just not in the manner that you have been taught, that it can or will be REALIZED... by the flesh. It is by means of the SPIRIT that such proof is abundant, evident... and readily discernable. Now, what neither religion OR science has taught you (because neither CAN teach you - as the only "teacher" is holy spirit, by means of my Lord)... is how to see, hear, touch, taste and smell... with the man you are on the INSIDE... versus the man you are on the OUTSIDE (which is the "man" that both science and religion "speak" to - science by means of scientific reasoning; religion, by means of the Law Covenant, which speaks to the flesh!).

    But... it can be done. Truly. And it is in THAT way... that you can come to know the One who God appointed as the "Way"... and it is THROUGH that One... that you can come to know God. Truly, there is NO other way.

    Remember you have to base your answer on the basis that god is love and desires that none pass away.

    First, let me say that I don’t recall that there were "rules" to what I needed to base my answer on.

    Second, let me say that I ALWAYS "found" my responses on love... on the basis that God IS love... and therefore desires none to pass away. It is why I signed on as His slave, by means of being a slave of Christ, His Son. LOVE is the only reason I am permitted to speak: there are those asking, seeking, knocking, thirsting, wishing... and hearing.

    And it is for the sake of THOSE... who truly love and are STILL looking for Him, that my Lord continues to "send" me... to grant me a reply to those who are inquiring, "Who is the JAH?" Because He is NOT "far off" from any one of us... not at all. It's just that WE... earthling man... keep "looking for LOVE (God) in all the wrong places..."

    I’m waiting. So has humanity. For a long time. Is it okay if we breath?

    Here's the "thing," dear Abaddon: YOU... and all of earthling mankind... is waiting for God to reveal Himself. Whereas God... is waiting for YOU... to seek Him. For if you DO... you WILL find Him! Rather, HE... by means of Christ... will find YOU! Why is laid upon us to seek Him, rather Him reveal Himself? Because He's done that, several times... to earthling man. And because the heart of earthling man is wicked... it would do again, what it has done before: [try to, and in some cases do] put to death ANY who He sends to make a way. From Enoch... even to Christ himself. WHO did they accept?

    If God showed up here today... MOST of mankind would attempt to kill even HIM. Why? Because their "nakedness" would be exposed... their "righteousness" would be revealed as UNrighteousness... and their facades before MEN... would be utterly demolished. They could no longer keep up their PRETENSE... of being "good". And it is MUCH more important to earthling man to impress earthling man... than it is the impress God. Why? Because... "they love the glory of MEN... more than they love the glory of God."

    Otherwise, God is not on your timetable, dear Abaddon. Nor on any of humanity’s. And I see nowhere and have heard nothing that restricts you… or anyone else… from breathing. So, go ahead… breathe. PLEASE breathe…

    If a man is away from his regular sexual partner for a few days, even if he masturbates or has sex with another person, when he has sex with his partner again will ejaculate far more than usual.

    Really? Cool! (I think!) But then, that WOULD help the odds of making MORE progeny at such time as they came together, wouldn’t it? But you must define "regular"...

    The Bible says god wants us to be monogamous.

    At some point, yes, the Bible does state that. But what is the problem here? Are men more needing of being 'exclusive love' than women? Is their need (for those that have it, as all quite obviously do NOT) to be the only "rooster" in the hen house scientific, or can "hens" handle more than one rooster? Not ALL species mate with more than one... some mate with one... for life. Some humans mate with more... but at different times, over spans of years. Some mate with more at the same time. If we CHOOSE to mimic those species that don't... does that disqualify those that CHOOSE to mimic the species that do? And isn't that very thing, CHOICE, what makes us different from animals?

    Our sexual biology is clearly developed on the assumption that whilst you’re away someone else might be mowing the lawn, thus the excess of ejaculate to try and overwhelm any other guy’s wrigglers.

    “Clearly”? May I ask you… is that in the case of a man with ONE woman? Or does it also apply in the case of man who has more than one woman? And if the latter, could it not simply be that during ANY period of abstinence, a man… ummmm… develops such excess? Because your statement here intimates that it only occurs with regard to his relationship with one woman (the “first” wife)… versus any other wives, concubines, girlfriends, sheep, cows, dogs, etc., that he might have the “hots” for…

    And what about women who need to sleep with a lot of men? Notice the words "NEED to"? And they do exist...

    And it seems that what you're saying here also suggests that if two men sleep with one woman at the same time (it happens!), that one will produce more ejaculate to overcome the other's. Okay... but that only suggests to me that one is a little more... ummmm... "determined" than the other... maybe actually has a little of his "heart" into it. But so what? Maybe one "feels" a little more... ummmmm... "procreative" than the other, whereas the other just wants to... nevermind...

    Shall we do homosexuality and twin studies nest?

    If, after this discussion, you feel we need to. Both are in the Bible (since it seems that that is what you take issue with)… but the Bible is not my “source” of information, so…

    If the Bible doesn’t even know how we are made to work, then it isn’t written under inspiration.

    SMILE – Although it does speak not only of how we work, but even how we’re made, to some degree… the Bible… it is NOT “inspired” - it itself states that fact… and I have said so here many times. ‘Tis religion what teaches that… and I have tried to give my position on religion, but…

    I think I’ll go back and lay down now, for a bit. Please note that I might be a bit slow about responding for the next few days/weeks, but I will respond… if you require it.

    Again, the greatest of peace to you!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

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