THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE Weekly # 1 - Only 144,000 Go To Heaven?

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  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE Weekly # 1 -- Only 144,000 go to Heaven?

    Disclaimer: I am not an expert on the Bible. Please never believe what I say about the Bible unless it agrees completely with the Scriptures.

    Acts 17:10-11: Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Beroea, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the Word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.

    1st John 4:1: Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

    Galatians 1:8: But even though we [the Apostles], or an angel from Heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached to you, let him be cursed.
    Galatians 1:9: As we have said before, so I now say again: if any man preaches to you any gospel other than that which you received, let him be cursed.

    Ephesians 5:10-11: Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; and quit sharing with them in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be exposing and reproving them

    Revelation 2:1-2: “To the angel of the congregation in Ephesus write: These are the things that He says who holds the seven stars in His right hand, He who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands, ‘I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot bear bad men, and that you put those to the test who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them liars.

    John 8:32: "...you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    Can Jehovah God or Jesus Christ lie?

    Titus 1:2: ...God... can't lie...

    1st Peter 2:22: [Jesus Christ] did not sin, "neither was deceit found in His mouth."

    John 18:20: Jesus answered him, "I spoke openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues, and in the Temple, where the Jews always meet. I said nothing in secret.

    This is the first of an ongoing Weekly Series of Threads I am going to post entitled "The Truth Will Set You Free".

    "The Truth Will Set You Free" will feature the false teachings of the Watchtower Society, for instance, this week will compare the teachings of the Watchtower Society about who goes to Heaven, with the teachings of the Bible.

    These Threads will be relatively small (compared to some of my other Threads), because I want everyone to be able to read over them quickly, and I also encourage everyone to post their comments about these Threads.

    Now this Weekly Issue (# 1 -- Only 144,000 go to Heaven?) begins:_____________________________

    The Watchtower Society teaches that only 144,000 "Anointed Ones" will go to Heaven as "Immortal Spirit Creatures", to be with Jesus Christ and Jehovah God, and will reign as "kings and priests" for 1,000 years.

    The Watchtower Society teaches that all others who are saved will stay on a "Paradise Earth", and will never get to be with Jesus Christ or Jehovah God in Heaven.

    The Watchtower Society teaches that the 144,000 "Anointed Ones" began to be chosen on Pentecost 33 A.D. (C.E.), and throughout all the ages there have supposedly been some of the "Anointed Ones" somewhere on Earth who believe the basic "truths" that the Jehovah's Witnesses teach (No Trinity, No Hellfire, No Immortal Soul, No Blood?, etc.).

    But, according to the Watchtower Society, somehow, the total number of "Anointed Ones" did not reach 144,000 until 1935, even though there is no way of knowing exactly how many "Anointed Ones" there were throughout history.

    The Watchtower Society also teaches that everyone who died before Pentecost 33 A.D. (C.E.), will be resurrected to live on Earth, and will never go to Heaven.

    The Watchtower Society teaches that ONLY the "Anointed Ones" are allowed to partake of the Bread and Wine at the "Lord's Evening Meal" (Memorial), because they teach that ONLY the "Anointed Ones" are in the New Covenant, and that Jesus Christ is the Mediator for the "Anointed Ones" ONLY.

    The Watchtower Society teaches that everyone else who wants to be saved (and live on Earth forever) must obey everything that the remaining Governing Body of "Anointed Ones" commands, or they will be destroyed at Armageddon for disobeying God's "Anointed Ones".

    But, what does the BIBLE say?

    The "144,000" AND the "Great Crowd" are BOTH in Heaven before the Throne of God and of Jesus:

    Revelation 7:9: After these things I looked, and behold, a great crowd, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
    Revelation 7:10: They cried with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation be to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

    Revelation 14:1: I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a number, 144,000, having His Name, and the Name of His Father, written on their foreheads.
    Revelation 14:2: I heard a sound from Heaven, like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of a great thunder. The sound which I heard was like that of harpists playing on their harps.
    Revelation 14:3: They sing a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000, those who had been redeemed out of the Earth.
    ____________________________

    Also, the Bible says that the 144,000 are all male virgin Jews, who are not liars, who are blameless, and who follow Jesus Christ. (I believe this proves very conclusively that the Watchtower Leaders are not part of the 144,000):

    Revelation 7:4: I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel

    Revelation 14:4: These [144,000] are those who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
    Revelation 14:5: In their mouth was found no lie, for they are blameless.

    Why does the Watchtower Society insist that the number "144,000" must be literal, but the part about them being Jewish Virgin Males is symbolic?____________________________

    God's servants from the Old Testament are in Heaven:

    Hebrews 11:13: These [servants of God before Jesus came to Earth] all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and embraced them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the Earth.
    Hebrews 11:14: For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking after a country of their own.
    Hebrews 11:15: If indeed they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had enough time to return.
    Hebrews 11:16: But now they desire a better country, that is, a Heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God, for He has prepared a City for them.

    Hebrews 12:22: But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the City of the Living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable myriads of angels,
    Hebrews 12:23: to the general assembly and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in Heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    Hebrews 12:24: to Jesus, the Mediator of a New Covenant, and to the Blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel.

    Matthew 8:11: I tell you that many will come from the east and the west, and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven

    Luke 16:19: "Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day.
    Luke 16:20: A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    Luke 16:21: and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
    Luke 16:22: It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried.
    Luke 16:23: In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.
    Luke 16:24: He cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.'
    Luke 16:25: "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish.
    Luke 16:26: Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
    Luke 16:27: "He said, 'I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house;
    Luke 16:28: for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won't also come into this place of torment.'
    Luke 16:29: "But Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the Prophets. Let them listen to them.'
    Luke 16:30: "He said, 'No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
    Luke 16:31: "He said to him, 'If they don't listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.'"

    Matthew 22:31: But concerning the resurrection of the dead, haven't you read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,
    Matthew 22:32: 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
    Matthew 22:33: When the multitudes heard it, they were astonished at His Teaching.
    ___________________________

    When someone who believes in Jesus Christ dies, they immediately go to Heaven to be with the Lord Jesus Christ. However, they go to Heaven without their bodies -- as a spirit/soul -- then when the Resurrection and Rapture occurs [at the same time] they will be reunited with their original bodies, which will be glorified indestructable bodies like the one Jesus Christ took when He was raised up.

    Luke 23:42: He [the thief on the Cross next to Jesus] said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your Kingdom."
    Luke 23:43: Jesus said to him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

    Acts 7:59: They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"

    Psalm 31:5: Into your hand I commend my spirit. You redeem me, Jehovah, God of Truth.

    Revelation 6:9: When He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed for the Word of God, and for the Testimony of the Lamb which they had.
    Revelation 6:10: They cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, Master, the Holy and True One, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the Earth?"
    Revelation 6:11: A long white robe was given to each of them. They were told that they should rest yet for a while, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who would also be killed even as they were, should complete their course.

    Revelation 20:4: ...I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the Testimony of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and such as didn't worship the Beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for the 1,000 years.

    Philippians 1:21: For to me [Paul] to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
    Philippians 1:22: But if I live on in the flesh, this will bring fruit from my work; yet I don't make known what I will choose.
    Philippians 1:23: But I am in a dilemma between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
    Philippians 1:24: Yet, to remain in the flesh is more needful for your sake.
    Philippians 1:25: Having this confidence, I know that I will remain, yes, and remain with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith,
    Philippians 1:26: that your rejoicing may abound in Christ Jesus in me through my presence with you again.

    2nd Corinthians 5:1: For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the Heavens.
    2nd Corinthians 5:2: For most assuredly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation which is from Heaven;
    2nd Corinthians 5:3: if it is so that being clothed we will not be found naked.
    2nd Corinthians 5:4: For indeed we who are in this tent do groan, being burdened; not that we desire to be unclothed, but that we desire to be clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
    2nd Corinthians 5:5: Now he who made us for this very thing is God, who also gave to us the down payment of the Spirit.
    2nd Corinthians 5:6: Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord;
    2nd Corinthians 5:7: for we walk by faith, not by sight.
    2nd Corinthians 5:8: We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
    ___________________________

    Jesus Christ speaking about Heaven:

    John 14:1: "Don't let your heart be troubled. Believe in God. Believe also in Me.
    John 14:2: In My Father's house are many mansions. If it weren't so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.John 14:3: If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to Myself; that where I am, you may be there also.John 14:4: Where I go, you know, and you know the way."
    John 14:5: Thomas says to Him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going. How can we know the way?"
    John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father, except through Me.

    John 12:26: If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me. Where I am, there My servant will also be. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

    John 17:24: Father, I desire that they also whom You have given Me be with Me where I am, that they may see My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

    John 13:36: Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I am going, you can't follow now, but you will follow afterwards."

    Matthew 6:19: "Don't lay up treasures for yourselves on the Earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal;
    Matthew 6:20: but lay up for yourselves treasures in Heaven, where neither moth nor rust consume, and where thieves don't break through and steal;
    Matthew 6:21: for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

    Luke 22:28: But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials.
    Luke 22:29: I confer on you a Kingdom, even as My Father conferred on Me,
    Luke 22:30: that you may eat and drink at My table in My Kingdom. You will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

    Matthew 5:12: Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven. For that is how they persecuted the Prophets who were before you.
    _______________________________

    The Apostles speaking about Heaven:

    Peter:

    1st Peter 1:3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy became our Father again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    1st Peter 1:4: to an incorruptible and undefiled inheritance that doesn't fade away, reserved in Heaven for you,
    1st Peter 1:5: who by the power of God are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    Paul:

    Colossians 1:3-8: We give thanks to God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, having heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which you have toward all the saints [holy ones], because of the hope which is laid up for you in the Heavens, of which you heard before in the Word of the Truth of the Gospel, which has come to you; even as it is in all the world and is bearing fruit and growing, as it does in you also, since the day you heard and knew the grace [un-earned favor and kindness] of God in truth; even as you learned of Epaphras our beloved fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf, who also declared to us your love in the Spirit.
    ___________________________

    The Rapture:

    The word "Rapture" means "catching away" or "being caught up", and when the word is used by Christians, it refers to the event when Jesus Christ descends from Heaven and gathers all of His followers on Earth who have been Saved, and "catches them away" to Heaven and changes their bodies into incorruptible glorified bodies, and they will be with Jesus in Heaven forever and ever, and at the same time the Resurrection happens, which means that all of the spirits of the Saved Christians in Heaven will be reunited with their original bodies, which will be glorified indestructable bodies.

    I personally believe that the Rapture will occur before, or at the exact same time, that the Antichrist appears and the Great Tribulation begins. However, I could be wrong on the timing -- several Christians believe that the Rapture will occur in the middle of the Great Tribulation, and there are also several Christians who believe that the Rapture will occur after the Great Tribulation.

    The Rapture is found in the following Scriptures:

    1st Thessalonians 4:13: But we don't want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don't grieve like the rest, who have no hope.
    1st Thessalonians 4:14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so those who have fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
    1st Thessalonians 4:15: For this we tell you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
    1st Thessalonians 4:16: For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
    1st Thessalonians 4:17: then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
    1st Thessalonians 4:18: Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    1st Corinthians 15:51: Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
    1st Corinthians 15:52: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
    1st Corinthians 15:53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    1st Corinthians 15:54: But when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

    Matthew 24:31: He [the Son of Man] will send out His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    Revelation 4:1: After these things I [John] looked and saw a door opened in Heaven, and the first voice that I heard, like a trumpet speaking with me, was one saying, "Come up here ..."

    Matthew 24:40: Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one will be left;
    Matthew 24:41: two women grinding at the mill, one will be taken and one will be left.
    Matthew 24:42: Watch therefore, for you don't know in what hour your Lord comes.
    _________________________

    Also, there have been at least six times in the Bible when it mentions someone was "caught up" [Raptured] into Heaven:

    Enoch:

    Genesis 5:22: Enoch walked with God after he became the father of Methuselah three hundred years, and became the father of sons and daughters.
    Genesis 5:23: all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty-five years.
    Genesis 5:24: Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

    Hebrews 11:5: By faith, Enoch was taken away, so that he wouldn't see death, and he was not found, because God transferred him. For he has had testimony given to him that before he was transferred he had been well pleasing to God.

    Elijah:

    2nd Kings 2:11: It happened, as they still went on, and talked, that behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both apart; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into Heaven.

    The Beggar, Lazarus [from Jesus Christ's Parable "The Rich Man and The Beggar"]:

    Luke 16:20: A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    Luke 16:21: and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
    Luke 16:22: It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. ...

    Jesus Christ Himself:

    Luke 24:50: He [Jesus Christ] led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands, and blessed them.
    Luke 24:51: It happened, while He blessed them, that He withdrew from them, and was carried up into Heaven.
    Luke 24:52: They worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
    Luke 24:53: and were continually in the Temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

    The Apostle Paul [temporarily]:

    2nd Corinthians 12:2: I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I don't know, or whether out of the body, I don't know; God knows), such a one caught up into the Third Heaven.
    2nd Corinthians 12:3: I know such a man (whether in the body, or outside of the body, I don't know; God knows),
    2nd Corinthians 12:4: how he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    2nd Corinthians 12:5: On behalf of such a one I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in my weaknesses.
    2nd Corinthians 12:6: For if I would desire to boast, I will not be foolish; for I will speak the truth. But I forbear, so that no man may account of me above that which he sees in me, or hears from me.
    2nd Corinthians 12:7: By reason of the exceeding greatness of the Revelations, that I should not be exalted excessively, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted excessively.

    The Apostle John [temporarily in a vision]:

    Revelation 4:1: After these things I [John] looked and saw a door opened in Heaven, and the first voice that I heard, like a trumpet speaking with me, was one saying, "Come up here ..."
    ____________________________

    Also, after the Great Tribulation, I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is going to return to Earth with all of His holy ones, and rule from Jerusalem for 1,000 years (Jesus will be ruling over the people who survived the Great Tribulation who are still in their earthly human bodies, and over all of the holy ones who have their glorified bodies):

    Revelation 20:1: I saw an angel coming down out of Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
    Revelation 20:2: He seized the Dragon, the Old Serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole inhabited Earth, and bound him for 1,000 years,
    Revelation 20:3: and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the 1,000 years were finished. After this, he must be freed for a short time.
    Revelation 20:4: I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the Testimony of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and such as didn't worship the Beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for the 1,000 years.
    Revelation 20:5: The rest of the dead didn't live until the 1,000 years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Revelation 20:6: Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him 1,000 years.
    Revelation 20:7: And after the 1,000 years, Satan will be released from his prison,
    Revelation 20:8: and he will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the Earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    Revelation 20:9: They went up over the breadth of the Earth, and surrounded the camp of the saints [holy ones], and the Beloved City. Fire came down out of Heaven from God, and devoured them.
    Revelation 20:10: The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the Beast and the False Prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
    ___________________________

    I believe, based on the Scriptures I've read, that after the Great Tribulation, God's people will be able to go back-and-forth between Heaven and Earth whenever they want to:

    Revelation 21:10: He carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God,

    Revelation 21:22: I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb, are its Temple.
    Revelation 21:23: The City has no need for the sun, neither of the moon, to shine, for the very glory of God illuminated it, and its Lamp is the Lamb.
    Revelation 21:24: The nations will walk in its light. The kings of the Earth bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
    Revelation 21:25: Its gates will in no way be shut by day (for there will be no night there),
    Revelation 21:26: and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it so that they may enter.
    Revelation 21:27: There will in no way enter into it anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
    _______________________________________________

  • gumby
    gumby

    Revelation 7:9: After these things I looked, and behold, a great crowd, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb,

    Revelation 14:1: I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a number, 144,000, They sing a new song before the throne , and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000, those who had been redeemed out of the Earth.

    It's intresting how the society can make two classes out of one class. Both scriptures you have presented clearly show that this is in heaven........not on the earth.

    The strange doctrine of the dubs on this matter is one of the easier ones to expose as they only have 2 scriptures they use to show 2 classses...John 10:16 and Psalms 37.

    The rest of their proof lies in circular reasoning such as.....God never intended man to live forever in heaven and God never changes his original PURPOSE. They fail to mention it was never God's purpose for man to be ruled over by 144,000 ones bought from the earth either.......that is unless he KNEW man would sin at the start.

    There UD....see...I didn't jump you for your long post but instead I actually commented on the material. Do you love me know

  • Pleasuredome
    Pleasuredome

    i think its quite improtant that you mentioned john10:16 Gumby, because if you read the last paragraph of john 9, through to 10:16, Jesus is talking to the Pharisees. Jesus came to gather sheep from Israel and not the gentiles at that time. he talks to the pharisees about his shepherd like role. then in 16 he says that he has other sheep which are not of this fold that he must bring. the sheep that arent of this fold(Israelites), are the gentiles. that to me that is the context and its quite logical. so it cant be referring to this seperate class of JWs. and what does the NT say about having class distinctions among yourselves?

    does anyone disagree with that?

  • artful
    artful

    Some good stuff here UD!However, a couple of points I'm not quite sure of:

    1. You mention Jesus words in Luke 23:43: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." seemingly to support the idea that both Jesus and the thief ascended to heaven that day. However, didn't Jesus ascend to heaven 40 days after his resurrection (Acts 1:3)?
    2. You refer to the rapture (ascension to heaven in spirit/soul) as having applied to various ones in the OT. However, wasn't Jesus the first to ascend to heaven? (Col 1:18, 1 Cor 15:20) How do you reconcile this?

    Cheers
    Artful

  • gumby
    gumby

    Hey PD,

    then in 16 he says that he has other sheep which are not of this fold that he must bring. the sheep that arent of this fold(Israelites), are the gentiles.

    Yes that is what the scripture means. Intrestingly, the society also believed this for many years but this scripture was too good to pass up for them to not use, to connect it with "another fold" which would picture an earthly class.

    Gumby

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Gumby said:

    Revelation 7:9: After these things I looked, and behold, a great crowd, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb,

    Revelation 14:1: I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a number, 144,000, They sing a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000, those who had been redeemed out of the Earth.

    It's intresting how the society can make two classes out of one class. Both scriptures you have presented clearly show that this is in heaven........not on the earth.

    The strange doctrine of the dubs on this matter is one of the easier ones to expose as they only have 2 scriptures they use to show 2 classses...John 10:16 and Psalms 37.

    The rest of their proof lies in circular reasoning such as.....God never intended man to live forever in heaven and God never changes his original PURPOSE. They fail to mention it was never God's purpose for man to be ruled over by 144,000 ones bought from the earth either.......that is unless he KNEW man would sin at the start.

    Excellent comments Gumby! :-)

    Thank You for your comments!

    From what I have read in the Bible, God's original purpose for humans, was for humans to have a close, loving, personal relationship with God. In fact, in the Garden of Eden, before Adam and Eve sinned and rebelled against God, God had a continual relationship directly with Adam and Eve. What the Watchtower fails to realize, is that it does not matter whether you are on Earth or in Heaven -- God's purpose is for you to be with Him, and have a close personal, loving relationship with Him.

    Gumby said:

    There UD....see...I didn't jump you for your long post but instead I actually commented on the material. Do you love me know

    lol, Thank You Gumby! I love you anyway, even if you "jump on me" for posting huge Threads. I even love Farkel, lol.

    I apologize for overreacting in that "Virgin Birth" Thread.

    Pleasuredome said:

    i think its quite improtant that you mentioned john10:16 Gumby, because if you read the last paragraph of john 9, through to 10:16, Jesus is talking to the Pharisees. Jesus came to gather sheep from Israel and not the gentiles at that time. he talks to the pharisees about his shepherd like role. then in 16 he says that he has other sheep which are not of this fold that he must bring. the sheep that arent of this fold(Israelites), are the gentiles. that to me that is the context and its quite logical. so it cant be referring to this seperate class of JWs. and what does the NT say about having class distinctions among yourselves?
    does anyone disagree with that?

    Very good reasoning Pleasuredome! I agree 100% with what you said. It makes so much sense -- no wonder the Watchtower Society doesn't teach it, lol.

    I thought I would add a few more Scriptures (from the New World Translation):

    Matthew 5:3: “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.

    According to the Watchtower Society this Verse is speaking about the 144,000. So, does this mean that the Great Crowd are not "conscious of their spiritual need"?

    Matthew 5:5: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.

    According to the Watchtower Society this Verse is speaking about the "Great Crowd" of "Other Sheep" who are going to live on Earth forever. So, does this mean that the 144,000 are not "mild-tempered"?

    Matthew 5:8: “Happy are the pure in heart, since they will see God.

    According to the Watchtower Society this Verse is speaking about the 144,000. So, does this mean that the Great Crowd are not "pure in heart"?

    Matthew 5:9: “Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’

    According to the Watchtower Society this Verse is speaking about the 144,000. So, does this mean that the Great Crowd are not "peaceable"?

    Matthew 5:10: “Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.

    According to the Watchtower Society this Verse is speaking about the 144,000. So, does this mean that none of the Great Crowd have ever been "persecuted for righteousness' sake"?

    Matthew 5:11-12: “Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.

    According to the Watchtower Society this Verse is speaking about the 144,000. So, does this mean that none of the Great Crowd have ever been "reproached", "persecuted" or "slandered" for Jesus' sake?

    Psalm 37:11: But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

    According to the Watchtower Society this Verse is speaking about the "Great Crowd" of "Other Sheep". So, does this mean that the 144,000 are not "meek"?

    Psalm 37:29: The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

    According to the Watchtower Society this Verse is speaking about the "Great Crowd" of "Other Sheep". So, does this mean that the 144,000 are not "righteous"?

    Proverbs 2:21: For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it.

    According to the Watchtower Society this Verse is speaking about the "Great Crowd" of "Other Sheep". So, does this mean that the 144,000 are not "upright" and that the 144,000 are not "blameless"?

    Psalm 37:9: For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth.

    According to the Watchtower Society this Verse is speaking about the "Great Crowd" of "Other Sheep". So, does this mean that the 144,000 do not "hope in Jehovah"?

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    Ok, but can you logically prove that we go to heaven at all, and don't just fade into the oblivion that awaits the animals? After all, does not the book say that man and beast have the same eventuality?

    CZAR

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Hi CZAR,

    Well, if you believe in God, why would God have created humans just so they could all "just fade into the oblivion"? Why would God have even given us the Bible if we are simply going to "fade into oblivion"?

    I believe these are the Verses you were talking about:

    Ecclesiastes 3:17: I [Solomon] said in my heart, "God will judge the righteous and the wicked; for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."
    Ecclesiastes 3:18: I said in my heart, "As for the sons of men, God tests them, so that they may see that they themselves are like animals.
    Ecclesiastes 3:19: For that which happens to the sons of men happens to animals. Even one thing happens to them. As the one dies, so the other dies. Yes, they have all one breath; and man has no advantage over the animals: for all is vanity.
    Ecclesiastes 3:20: All go to one place. All are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

    Notice, those Verses say that humans and animals all die and all of their bodies return to the dust. But, it is very important to read the very next Verse:

    Ecclesiastes 3:21: Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, whether it goes downward to the Earth?"

    By this, I believe that Solomon was saying that there is a human spirit that lives on after death, and that God will judge that spirit (Ecclesiastes 3:17).

    Also, Jesus Christ said:

    "Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28)

    All throughout the Bible, it is clear that death is not the end of existence for humans.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    I don't trust the Bible. I've never seen anyone be resurrected, I've never seen a miracle cure. The closest that humans have come to anything like that is thanks to science - antibiotics and whatnot. And science says we evolved from dumb beasts and die just like them.

    I don't think that Solomon meant that there was life after death at all - even if he existed and wrote this book of Ecclesiastes. The whole book is full of statements like "No knowledge nor devising... in Sheol" and "There exists nothing but to eat, drink, and see good for all the hard work" and that everything is vanity and striving after wind. It sounds like the world-weary writings of somebody that didn't believe in much after death at all.

    I mean, even your example shows how this writer was questioning life after death, saying that nobody knows where the spirit of men and animals goes after we die. His whole point was that living life to the fullest now was the essential thing, and everything else was meaningless because we die and take nothing with us.

    As for why God would create us to fade into oblivion - as Voltaire said, "You arrogant atom!" What on earth gives you the impudent idea that your tiny life actually matters? In a universe where galaxies collide, where the very stars themselves burn out and die, where random meteorite strikes wipe out entire ecosystems - why WOULD our short lives be so special that we should be granted immortality, which the planet we came from does not have?

    Who can speak for God? Who can say, "God will do this," or "God will do that." If God created the universe, what makes you think he even noticed US?

    On the other hand, if he did condescend to notice our tiny intelligence and frail bodies, what would be the point of making this entire universe to serve as a kind of breeding ground for angels? Why didn't he just make angels to begin with? If mankind is the center of the universe, then God has some serious wasted space on His hands. Stars burning out and nobody to notice their passing?

    No, mankind is NOT the meaning of the universe. Immortality is NOT our destiny. Only death. Like everything from atoms to galaxies, we will entropy and die having served some purpose that only the Great Designer can fathom.

    CZAR

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Artful said:

    Some good stuff here UD!

    Thank You.

    Artful said:

    However, a couple of points I'm not quite sure of:
    1. You mention Jesus words in Luke 23:43: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." seemingly to support the idea that both Jesus and the thief ascended to heaven that day. However, didn't Jesus ascend to heaven 40 days after his resurrection (Acts 1:3)?
    2. You refer to the rapture (ascension to heaven in spirit/soul) as having applied to various ones in the OT. However, wasn't Jesus the first to ascend to heaven? (Col 1:18, 1 Cor 15:20) How do you reconcile this?

    You know what, those 2 questions are very, very good questions, and I thank you so much for bringing them up.

    I have also been wondering about this too.

    In my research and study of the Bible, I have found that, among Christians, there are two or three different lines of thought on those Verses.

    Later today or tomorrow, I hope to be able to post some of my beliefs and the beliefs of others about those Verses.

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