Proof of the resurection of Jesus Christ?

by Chap 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Chap

  A while ago, I think Abaddon and others asked for secular accounts for Christ's resurection in response to something I wrote. I believe I stated that if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, everything else in christianity would be moot.

  In a book called Can Christianity Be Proven? Beyond Reasonable Doubt! by Robert J. Morgan, the author states that Josephus described Jesus as a wise man that was crucified and

  "on the third day he appeared to them restored to life...and the sect of Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared."

  Morgan got this info from Dr. Mireille Hadas-Lebel, ancient history scholar and professor at the National Institute of Oriental Languages and Civilizations in Paris.

  There is a broadcast seminar to appear at many churches on Palm Sunday afternoon if anyone is interested. This seminar will be given by Hank Hanegraaff, Mark Mittelberg and Lee Strobel. I don't know which churches will broadcasting this and I know mine isn't so I had to contact the company. The church I attend isn't broadcasting the seminar. I plan on going and taking notes. To find a place that is broadcasting the seminar, contact CCN and tell them the area code in which you live so they can search that way.

  For More Information contact:
  Church Communication NetworkPhone: (800) 321-6781
  www.ccnonline.net

  More info about the seminar can be found at Hank Hanefraaff's website www.equip.org

  P.S. The head of the organization to which I belong knows everything so you don't have to tell me if you attend a broadcast of this seminar. I will not be handing in a card.
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  rem

  Chap,

  Please post the entire cite from Josephus' work. After you do so you will see why this passage is considered an interpolation by almost all modern scholars.

  rem
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  Abaddon

  Chap; As you know, the Gospels say that upon Jesus' death or ressurection (can't remember), the dead arrose from their tombs and went around preaching about the good news. Explaining how such an extraordinary event would not have received the equivalent of worldwide CNN coverage and be documented by multiple contemporary sources is something Bible Literalist Apologetics cannot do.

  It is obviously an insertion. There are other examples of where the Bible is obviously NOT divinely inspired, errors, contradictions, unsupported events, but this one apertains directly to what you're trying to prove.

  Jesus may have lived; it's not definate he did, or that he didn't. But there is no proof for him having been anything other than a 'wise man' if he did exist, and given the level of relaibility of the Bible, we cannot be too sure that he said many of the things attributed to him.

  To me, this doesn't take away the truth and beauty of some of the things he said. But that truth andbbeauty doesn't make him real or the son of god, as I can find truth and beauth in Shakespeare too.
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  greven

  Very nicely put Abaddon!

  Didn't Josephus also write about miracles performed by Ceasar and the birth of a literal lamb out of a virgin in Jerusalem? If he did (I am not completely sure) should we belief those things too? How reliable does this make his other testimonies?

  Greven
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  hooberus

  Abaddon said: Jesus may have lived; it's not definate he did, or that he didn't. But there is no proof for him having been anything other than a 'wise man' if he did exist, and given the level of relaibility of the Bible, we cannot be too sure that he said many of the things attributed to him.

  The various first century witness of the books of the new Testamnt are more than enough to show that Jesus lived.

  The following site gives an overview of the extra-biblical evidence for the Historicity of Jesus. I have been able to confirm from other sources (including hard volumes) some of the information on the site, and it appears to be a well documented site. The site has several pages which inorder to view a person might need to type the page number in after the "HistJesus" section of the address.

  http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus1.htm
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  hooberus

  Abaddon said: Chap; As you know, the Gospels say that upon Jesus' death or ressurection (can't remember), the dead arrose from their tombs and went around preaching about the good news. Explaining how such an extraordinary event would not have received the equivalent of worldwide CNN coverage and be documented by multiple contemporary sources is something Bible Literalist Apologetics cannot do.

  The following (as well as more information) was posted on the below linked thread on the same issue.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/47631/700774/post.ashx#700774

  Nowhere does the text directly state that these resurrected individuals went "around preaching", the text simply states that they "appeared unto many." Nor does the text say how long they remained. It is also important to realize that the resurrection from the dead is also a restoration of the body that died. Hense these people would not not necessarily look half-rotten or goulish. They would simply be recognized as people who had died and who now were appearing to many. So the event may not have been as dramatic as it is often portrayed.

  Since first century historical accounts are limited to what extent would one expect to find evidence from other historical sources about such an event? Such an event probably would not have been included in secular histories. The only sources that I can think of that might be expected to possibly contain such an account would be those sources which wrote detailed histories of Jerusalem. How many first century writers wrote detailed histories about Jerusalem? Josephus comes to mind, but does anyone else? My knowledge of first century historical sources is limited, so if anyone can think of another source which should reasonably have included the account in Matthew 27 please list it. Otherwise the issue may simply be why did Josephus who wrote first century historical accounts of Jerusalem not give a contemporary account of Matthew 27:53 if such an event really occurred?
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  Chap

  Luke has proven to be a far more reliable historian than Josephus. I'd be interested to see the rest of Josepus' work on the subject since I quoted all the author of the book I have stated.

  Abaddon, The reason I started this thread is because I thought the three guys that are doing the seminar could answer the questions you have better than I could. The seminar is an hour and fifty minutes long so it should touch on your questions. Also Hank Hanegraaffe has a new book out called The Third Day available at his website www.equip.org
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  seedy3

  There are 2 or more main problems with the Josephus passage that really should be considered when trying to use him as a reliable source as evidence for a historical Jesus.

  1st: He was not even a flicker in his momma's eye when Jesus is purported to have walked the earth, so everything he wrote was hear-say on this subject, or was copied from other sources, that he himself would not have used.

  2nd: He hated Christians, he despised their actions, to him they were more or less heritical and would never haved considered anything that Jesus did as "Miraculas". If he did know that Jesus performed miracles then why did he not convert, he was a Jew, and never felt that Jesus was anything of any concequence. Infact, he wrote about more then one "Christ" and really considered them all false, including Jesus of the bible.

  Much of the history, prior to his birth, was copied from sources such as the bible (OT) and not much from secular sources, so often when he writes of things such as the flood and the heritage of the Hebrew peoples, he is really recanting the traditions that were set forth in the scriptures, not secular writings that other nations and peoples had written, outside of the OT. If I recall, he even relied on some of the Apocryphal writtings such as Barach and Enoch, just to name a couple.

  Seedy
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  Chap

  seedy3

  Have you heard of the achaelogical evidence of the ancient caskets in Jerusalem? One translated into English says "Jesus Help!" and another says "Jesus, let him who rests here arise." I got this info from the same book I used previously.
• 

  rem

  Have you heard of the achaelogical evidence of the ancient caskets in Jerusalem? One translated into English says "Jesus Help!" and another says "Jesus, let him who rests here arise." I got this info from the same book I used previously.

  How was it again that this proves that Jesus was resurrected?

  rem