The US Sedition Act Appropriate Today?

by ThiChi 51 Replies latest social current

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    The aluminum tubes charges by colin powell

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/18/iraq/main537096.shtml

    Interviews with scientists about the aluminum tubes the U.S. says Iraq has imported for enriching uranium, but which the Iraqis say are for making rockets. Given the size and specification of the tubes, the U.N. calls the "Iraqi alibi air tight."

    The inspectors do acknowledge, however, that they would not be here at all if not for the threat of U.S. military action.

    So frustrated have the inspectors become that one source has referred to the U.S. intelligence they've been getting as "garbage after garbage after garbage." In fact, Phillips says the source used another cruder word. The inspectors find themselves caught between the Iraqis, who are masters at the weapons-hiding shell game, and the United States, whose intelligence they've found to be circumstantial, outdated or just plain wrong.

    The claimed uranium purchaces from africa:

    UN Official - Fake Iraq Nuke

    Papers Were 'Crude'

    3-26-3

    VIENNA (Reuters) - A few hours and a simple internet search was all it took for U.N. inspectors to realize documents backing U.S. and British claims that Iraq had revived its nuclear program were crude fakes, a U.N. official said.

    Speaking to Reuters on condition of anonymity, a senior official from the U.N. nuclear agency who saw the documents offered as evidence that Iraq tried to buy 500 tons of uranium from Niger, described one as so badly forged his "jaw dropped.''

    "When (U.N. experts) started to look at them, after a few hours of going at it with a critical eye things started to pop out,'' the official said, adding a more thorough investigation used up "resources, time and energy we could have devoted elsewhere.''

    The United States first made the allegation that Iraq had revived its nuclear program last fall when the CIA warned that Baghdad ``could make a nuclear weapon within a year'' if it acquired uranium. President Bush found the proof credible enough to add it to his State of the Union speech in January.

    The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) official said the charge Iraq sought the uranium was to be the "stake in the heart'' of Baghdad and "would have been as close to a smoking gun as you could get'' because Iraq could only want it for weapons.

    OBVIOUS FAKES

    Once the IAEA got the documents -- which took months -- French nuclear scientist Jacques Bautes, head of the U.N. Iraq Nuclear Verification office, quickly saw they were fakes.

    Two documents were particularly bad. The first was a letter from the president of Niger which referred to his authority under the 1965 constitution. That constitution has been defunct for nearly four years, the official said.

    There were other problems with the letter, including an unsuccessful forgery of the president's signature.

    "It doesn't even look close to the signature of the president. I'm not a (handwriting) expert but when I looked at it my jaw dropped,'' the official said.

    Another letter about uranium dated October 2000 purportedly came from Niger's foreign minister and was signed by a Mr. Alle Elhadj Habibou, who has not been foreign minister since 1989.

    To make matters worse, the letterhead was out of date and referred to Niger's ``Supreme Military Council'' from the pre-1999 era -- which would be like calling Russia the Soviet Union.

    After determining the documents were fakes, the IAEA had a group of international forensics experts -- including people from the U.S and Britain -- verify their findings. The panel unanimously agreed with the IAEA.

    "We don't know who did it,'' the official said, adding that it would be easy to come up with a long list of groups and states which would like to malign the present Iraqi regime.

    The IAEA asked the U.S. and Britain if they had any other evidence backing the claim that Iraq tried to buy uranium. The answer was no.

    IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei informed the U.N. Security Council in early March that the Niger proof was fake and that three months with 218 inspections at 141 sites had produced ``no evidence or plausible indication'' Iraq had a nuclear program.

    But last week Vice President Dick Cheney repeated the U.S. position and said that ElBaradei was wrong about Iraq.

    "We know (Iraqi President Saddam Hussein) has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and we believe he has in fact reconstituted nuclear weapons,'' he said.

    The claimed al qeuda connections:

    BBC NEWS Wednesday, 5 February, 2003, 04:19 GMT Leaked report rejects Iraqi al-Qaeda link

    Bin Laden 'does not agree with Saddam's regime'

    There are no current links between the Iraqi regime and the al-Qaeda network, according to an official British intelligence report seen by BBC News.

    The classified document, written by defence intelligence staff three weeks ago, says there has been contact between the two in the past.

    Leaked intelligence document

    But it assessed that any fledgling relationship foundered due to mistrust and incompatible ideologies.

    That conclusion flatly contradicts one of the main charges laid against Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein by the United States and Britain - that he has cultivated contacts with the group blamed for the 11 September attacks.

    The report emerges even as Washington was calling Saddam a liar for denying, in a television interview with former Labour MP and minister Tony Benn, that he had any links to al-Qaeda.

    Peace prospects

    It also comes on the day US Secretary of State Colin Powell goes to the United Nations Security Council to make the case that Iraq has failed to live up to the demands of the world community.

    Foreign Secretary Jack Straw is also ratcheting up the rhetoric in the ongoing crisis over Saddam's alleged weapons of mass destruction, saying the prospect of a peaceful outcome is "diminishing" by the day.

    The defence intelligence staff document, seen by BBC defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan, is classified Top Secret and was sent to UK Prime Minister Tony Blair and other senior members of the government.

    It says al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden views Iraq's ruling Ba'ath party as running contrary to his religion, calling it an "apostate regime".

    "His aims are in ideological conflict with present day Iraq," it says.

    Gilligan says that in recent days intelligence sources have told the BBC there is growing disquiet at the way their work is being politicised to support the case for war on Iraq.

    He said: "This almost unprecedented leak may be a shot across the politicians' bows."

    Iraqi co-operation

    Mr Straw, writing in Wednesday's Times newspaper, focuses on Iraq's failure to get rid of its weapons of mass destruction rather than on its links with terrorism.

    "I have hoped and prayed all along that this crisis could be resolved by Iraq's co-operation with weapons inspectors," he says.

    "But... it seems increasingly clear that Saddam will never voluntarily relinquish his weapons."

    French President Jacques Chirac, as he met Mr Blair on Tuesday, called for UN weapons inspectors to be given more time, saying "there is still much to be done in the way of disarmament by peaceful means".

    But Mr Straw said "endless" calls for more time were "futile" and risked being a "cop-out".

    Both the US and UK are pushing for a second UN Security Council resolution soon, which could authorise force against Iraq.

    Colin Powell has said the dossier of evidence against Iraq he is presenting to the Security Council will be "a straightforward, sober and compelling demonstration" that Baghdad is deceiving UN weapons inspectors and failing to disarm.

    TV interview

    Saddam Hussein himself denied on Tuesday having any weapons of mass destruction.

    He told Mr Benn in the interview broadcast by Channel 4 News: "These weapons do not come in small pills that you can hide in your pocket.

    "These are weapons of mass destruction and it is easy to work out if Iraq has them or not."

    Denying any connection with al-Qaeda, he said: "If we had a relationship with al-Qaeda and we believed in that relationship, we wouldn't be ashamed to admit it."

    More documentation on these points can be provided.

    I don't put that much stock in the testimony of tortured prisoners.

    SS

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    SS: Though off topic, here are the facts:

    We are praying you will stick to your resolve to liberate our country from a dictatorial tyranny over 30 years which has caused the deaths of nearly 2 million men and women, sons and daughters." -Letter to UK Prime Minister Tony Blair from Iraqi Exiles

    (U.S. State Dept: Iraq Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs)
    (U.S. Senate: Testimony on emerging Threats & Capabilities)
    (U.K. Ministry of Defence: Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction)
    (Foreign Affairs: The Greatest Threat -Richard Butler)
    (Washington Times: Iraq Seeks Steel for Nukes)
    (Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights & Labor: Iraq: A Population Silenced)
    (UK Times: Liberal MP Backs War After Meeting Saddam Torture Victims)
    "Of course they have no credibility. If they had any, they certainly lost it in 1991. I don't see that they have acquired any credibility."
    -Chief U.N. Weapons Inspector Hans Blix, on the Saddam regime

    (UK Telegraph: Saddam Killed Abu Nidal Over Al-Qaeda Row)
    (UK Guardian: The Iraqi Connection to Al-Qaeda)
    (Jane's: Abu Nidal Murder Trail Leads Directly to Iraqi Regime)
    (Brain-Terminal.com: MOS at the New York City Peace Protests)
    (MidEast Review of Int'l Affairs: Iraq's WMDs & the '97 Gulf Crisis)

    "If Saddam Hussein fails to comply and we fail to act or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop his program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of sanctions and ignore the commitments he's made? Well, he will conclude that the international community's lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on doing more to build an arsenal of devastating destruction. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow. The stakes could not be higher. Some way, someday, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal."

    -President Bill Clinton in 1998 (Amir Taheri: Anti-War or Anti-US?) (Reuters: Report: Saddam Authorized Use of Bio-Chemical Weapons if Attacked)
    (The Scotsman: France & Russia Make Money Out of Immoral Peace)
    (StratFor.com: The Chirac-Hussein Connection)
    (Associated Press: Non-Aligned Summit Backs Iraq Disarmament)
    (New Republic: Dispatch - Food Fight)
  • ThiChi
    ThiChi
    ".....We know about the Al-Qaeda training camp that's in northern Iraq, and we know of Salman Pak south of Baghdad where they were being trained to hijack planes. I'm convinced that some Al-Qaeda, Hamas, and these types are in this mix, disguised as the Republican Guard. ........"
    Read the Articles...
    (AP: Australia's 'desert phantoms' wreak havoc among Iraqi military behind enemy lines)
    (Reuters: British forces kill 20 Iraqi fighters)
    (UK Belfast Telegraph: Iraq troops fire on civilian uprising in Basra)
  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    I agree:

    The realization that the war in Iraq would not be over in a day or two sent the markets reeling and the media into a frenzy of negativity this week. When one considers that Desert Storm took six weeks and Kosovo took two months, it strikes us as odd that the criteria for a successful war have been set in days. In fact, both the Iraqi and U.S. war plans are playing out pretty much as expected -- a chess game with fairly predictable first moves. Things get harder now, of course, but the logic of the war remains set. The United States will win, unless it takes unnecessary risks in trying to win a prize for the world's shortest war.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    “I don't put that much stock in the testimony of tortured prisoners. “ SS: Your comment is false and disgusting.....

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Iraq War Crimes Dossiers in Works

    Strategy: The U.S. effort to document abuses by Hussein and his 'dirty dozen' reflects preparation for the aftermath of conflict.

    By Robin Wright
    Times Staff Writer

    October 6, 2002

    WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration is laying the groundwork for prosecuting Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and a "dirty dozen" other officials for genocide, "ethnic cleansing," mass executions, rape and other crimes against humanity.

    The push to prepare dossiers for war crimes prosecutions, which now involves the State Department, the Pentagon and the intelligence community, reflects the growing momentum in Washington toward ousting Hussein and the increasing preparation for the days afterward -- even though President Bush has not yet made a decision on going to war against Iraq.

    "We need to do our part to document the abuses, to collect the evidence that points to who is responsible," said Pierre-Richard Prosper, the State Department's ambassador at large for war crimes and a former U.N. war crimes prosecutor for the Rwanda tribunal. "We feel there has to be accountability for what has occurred. You can't brush aside the deaths of more than 100,000 people."

    In a telling reflection of how the Iraqi leader relies on family and tribe to enforce his rule, half of the dozen on the U.S. list are members of Hussein's family: two sons, three half brothers and a cousin.

    After Hussein, the next name on the list is Ali Hassan Majid, nicknamed "Chemical Ali" for his role in a 1988 operation--code-named Al Anfal, or "the spoils"--that used chemical weapons to kill tens of thousands of Kurds in northern Iraq.

    Majid, a cousin of the Iraqi president, was also responsible for putting down 1991 uprisings by northern Kurds and southern Shiites after the first Bush administration called for Iraqis to oust Hussein.

    At least 130,000 civilians have been killed as a result of deliberate regime policies during Hussein's 23-year rule, although that might prove to be only a fraction of the final tally, according to U.S. officials and human rights groups. Tens of thousands, including women, children and the elderly, were victims of chemical weapons attacks.

    In a massive ethnic cleansing campaign, more than 120,000 Iraqis--primarily Kurds, Turkomans and Assyrians, none of whom are Arabs--have been forcibly expelled from the area around the northern city of Kirkuk to "Arabize" the oil-rich region, government and private groups say.

    In the northern region known as Kurdistan, ethnic cleansing that began in 1991 has accelerated in recent months, according to Human Rights Watch. Every week, anywhere from three to 20 families are forcibly expelled from their homes and towns, said Hania Mufti, an Iraq specialist with Human Rights Watch who just returned from a fact-finding mission to the region.

    The issue of justice is also key to Iraqis, both for healing deep wounds and for rebuilding the nation.

    "For Iraqis and the international community, the issue of addressing Saddam's crimes against humanity is as important as addressing his possession and use of weapons of mass destruction," said Sermid Sarraf, an Iraqi American lawyer based in Los Angeles who works with the State Department on government transition issues.

    The United States, with varying degrees of support from Iraqi opposition groups and human rights organizations, is looking at a three-tiered system of tribunals to deal with the thousands of army commanders, ruling Baath party officials, government employees, and security and intelligence agents implicated in war crimes.

    In a break with the recent pattern of international war crimes prosecutions for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, the administration now favors a tribunal to try top officials inside a "free Iraq," with Iraqi and foreign judges, probably including Americans, according to administration officials.

    The tribunal would prosecute the leadership--which could well expand beyond the original 12 after further investigations--for violations of both Iraqi law and international conventions.

    "If and when there is a regime change, the appropriate forum should be at home, in a free and democratic Iraq," said Prosper, a former deputy district attorney in Los Angeles who dealt with hard-core gangs.

    The concept has been endorsed by the Iraqi Jurists Assn., an exile group based in London, and by more than 40 Iraqi emigre judges, law professors and legal experts who met last month in Italy to discuss a transitional justice system in the event of Hussein's ouster.

    The hybrid is also a model necessitated by the Bush administration's opposition to the International Criminal Court, human rights groups say. Washington would look hypocritical if it asked for a United Nations-mandated war crimes tribunal now.

    "Other nations would see the U.S. action on Iraq to be particularly self-serving in the absence of cooperation on an international criminal court, which the rest of the world is keen on," said Michael Amitay, director of the research group Washington Kurdish Institute.

    A similar hybrid of local and foreign judges and lawyers is being used to deal with war crimes trials stemming from the decade-long civil conflict in the West African nation of Sierra Leone, although human rights experts are concerned about the precedent this model would establish if used in Iraq.

    "It's a practical approach, but the international community would like to see these people dealt with in a way that conforms with the developing law on crimes against humanity, especially given that these crimes are so much more severe than anything dealt with anywhere recently," said Charles Forest, chief executive of Indict, an international group based in London that is amassing information on Iraqi war crimes.

    After the trials of the top leaders, the next level--potentially dealing with hundreds or even thousands of offenses, because the war crimes go back a full generation--would be left to local courts, U.S. officials say.

    "The pattern globally is that midlevel cases can be dealt with by a conventional domestic system which is accepted and known by the people. It also serves as an important means of reviving the justice system," said an administration official who requested anonymity.

    The third and largest group of cases might never go to trial but would instead be worked out through a group similar to the Truth and Justice Commission in South Africa that would grant a form of amnesty in exchange for a full accounting of crimes committed.

    "One thing we have learned with war crimes around the world is that it's impossible to prosecute each and every perpetrator, as the number is so large," Prosper said. "You have to deal with the leaders to send a strong signal that justice will prevail. But the treatment of the balance of cases is more flexible, depending on the needs of society."

    To avoid violent retribution after regime change in Baghdad, the exile group of jurists has issued a communique calling on fellow Iraqis not to take the law into their own hands.

    "There are millions of Baath party members who joined the party mainly to advance their jobs or survive but aren't guilty of crimes," said Sarraf, who attended the meeting last month in Italy. "Then there's the guy in the army who killed someone on orders and to stay alive. Those individuals who can raise defenses such as 'involuntarily killed on threat of losing their own lives' ought to be allowed to use that as a defense."

    The decision to prepare for war crimes prosecutions follows 11 years of inaction on Iraqi war crimes despite a wealth of data, eyewitness accounts and more than 18 tons of seized Iraqi documents, according to the Iraqi opposition and human rights groups.

    Ironically, the first Bush administration opted not to push for such prosecutions even after the 1991 uprisings, which were called for personally by President George H.W. Bush.

    The Clinton administration also did not push the U.N. Security Council for either a tribunal or a "commission of experts" on Iraqi war crimes, and that resulted in missed opportunities to put pressure on Hussein's regime, according to Iraqi and human rights groups.

    "Over the years, the U.S. has failed to take a leadership role in bringing this regime to justice, which could have been done without toppling it. The U.S. could have pushed for an apparatus that would demonstrate the regime's criminality and further isolate it by obligating other countries to arrest and extradite any Iraqi official who left Iraq," Amitay said.

    "We might not be where we are today if there had been action."

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Tichi

    SS: Though off topic, here are the facts:

    As you say, however the last quote was partially on topic

    I'm convinced that some Al-Qaeda, Hamas, and these types are in this mix, disguised as the Republican Guard

    Two urls you listed are dead, the quote doesn't appear to be from the other one. Who is the speaker? Sounds like all he has are convictions.

    SS

  • Francois
    Francois

    There is no such thing as a "reasonable limit" on free speech.

    Go to your room and stay there until you can act like an adult.

    francois

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Tichi

    Here is are comments by chief inspecter blix at the UN in new york. They are dated march 26. Is there a later one?

    http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20030326_1395.html

    VIENNA, Austria March 26 —

    Hans Blix, the U.N. chief weapons inspector, has voiced criticism and disappointment that his inspectors had to pull out from Iraq before completing their task.

    In an interview with the Austrian magazine News at U.N. headquarters in New York, Blix said, "I am disappointed that we could not stay longer to finish our work." Excerpts of the interview, to be published Thursday, were released to Austrian media on Wednesday.

    "We had the door slammed in our faces," said Blix, the head of the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, known as UNMOVIC. "Three and a half months were not enough, nor do I believe that U.N. resolution 1441 meant it that way."

    Blix described as problematic his cooperation with the U.S. government, saying "I even had a sense, shortly before the (U.S.) decision to go to war, that they were irritated by our work."

    According to the excerpts, Blix said Washington tried to obtain results to its liking, adding "whenever we could not do that, there was criticism."

    He reportedly said it was unlikely that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein would use weapons of mass destruction.

    SS

  • ashitaka
    ashitaka
    Considering that WMD and a linkage between the Iraqi Government and 9/11 terrorist action were the stated war ticket and both of which are now presumably superfluous to invasion requirement, I consider this spokesman’s comment seditious toward truth…lol

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