Jesus Christ: Invented by the Romans to subvert the Messianic impulse in Judaism into Pacifism?

by TerryWalstrom 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • john.prestor

    Classic fundamentalism, I demolish your first argument so you abandon it without acknowledging you were wrong and just retreat to the next.

    People die for all sorts of reasons beyond seeing some dead guy appear before their very eyes. When jihadists blow themselves up does that prove their brand of Islam is true? Of course not.

    Early Christians knew nothing about the 'empty tomb' legend or any legends about physical appearances like the gospels describe. In 1 Clement the author, a Roman bishop writing at the end of the first century or beginning of the second, claims the four seasons and the phoenix (!) prove that God will one day resurrect believers. Let me repeat that: the four seasons and the phoenix. Perfect chance for him to trot out the empty tomb legend or some appearance of the resurrected Jesus to the disciples, and yet that's the best he can come up with. The only passage in the Bible beyond the gospels which mentions any resurrection appearances is 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul contradicts the legends found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (appearances to Mary and/or other women, then appearances to the 12) with 'his' own list of appearances to Peter, the 12, James, all the apostles, 500 brothers, and Paul. Point being Paul himself contradicts the gospel legend with his own set of legends. In other words: there's no good reason to believe a word of what the gospel authors claim.

    You're beat, tap out. I'm being gentle.

  • knowsnothing1

    John, you missed this:

    1 Clem. 42:3

    Having therefore received a charge, and having been fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come.

    Paul's omission of the women doesn't mean he's contradicting.

    If I wasn't clear with my first argument, I apologize. Did they die specifically defending the resurrection of Jesus? No, but surely that was where there faith and hope lay. That was what allowed them to endure persecution. As Paul says, to live is Christ, to die is gain.

    We can at least discard the OP that Jesus was invented by the Romans. Please refer to Bart Ehrman. It is a historical certainty that a man named Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

  • Simon

    Jesus seems to be a character that encapsulated the beliefs of the Essenenes who were a 3rd group along with the Pharisees and Sadducees - probably why the bible has lots of condemnation for those other 2 competing groups.

  • john.prestor

    No response to what I posted... again. So this is my last response.

    I'm glad you quoted that passage. Early Christians did believe Jesus rose from the dead... in the spirit. Check 1 Peter for instance. Clement says the disciples were convinced. They were convinced, but why? Because of the empty tomb and a bodily resurrection? No. Because they had faith in him. You can't separate resurrection from bodily resurrection. Early Christians, however, believed, as in Hebrews, that Jesus passed immediately from the cross to heaven as a spirit when his body died. Thus the earthquakes and dead people rising in Matthew right when Jesus dies. Thus Jesus 'giving up the ghost' in Mark and John and even the Gospel of Peter

    I disagree with you on the historical Jesus, and while I respect Bart Ehrman I think he's wrong on this. Go to and read some of the articles, you're in for a surprise. I go for a more very minimalist position myself. For that I'd suggest Alfred Loisy, you can find his The Origins of the New Testament free at

    Final point: I used to believe what you do. There's a reason I don't anymore.

  • smiddy3

    If Jesus was the son of God and had such an all important Salvation message to deliver to all mankind why did we only get second and third person accounts of his life and ministry ?

    Which by the way when you analyse it all doesn`t really say that much on its own .

    Why didn`t Jesus Christ himself write down any information that would be beneficial for all mankind ?

    Moses was supposed to have written five books ,the greater Moses ,Jesus Christ ? wrote None.?

  • Finkelstein

    Here is another documentary discussing the possibility of how the basic foundation of Christianity came about.

    The activity by the Jewish civilization and the Roman civilization through its emperors during a particular era is an interesting one.

  • cyberjesus

    Atwell presents an interesting theory. always wondered why the Roman state embraced christianity.

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