That's the same answer they give to the question as to why God allowed polygamy in the OT. Women, including wives, were chattel.
My email to JW Following Trolley Conversation
by cofty 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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StephaneLaliberte
That, sir, was a beautiful email. Nothing to add there. Beautiful!
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Magnum
As one who has not completely given up on the Bible*, I find your argument to be compelling. I think the way you handled the situation was excellent. I'd love to know what's going on in that JW's head.
"Your initial response on this point was to suggest that god did not approve of slavery but that he tolerated it, much as he tolerated divorce.
I wonder whether on reflection you still find this to be a compelling defence. How trivially easy would it have been for god to instruct the nation of Israel that no man should ever take another human as a possession?"
Extremely good point: I've never thought about that.
*I see many problems with it, but because of the financial position my having been a 110% JW for decades put me in, I have very little time for research, reading, and analysis. I don't know what to and what not to believe right now; I just keep an open mind.
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cofty
Thanks
I believe this approach has a lot going for it. It's easier to challenge the Bible than to attack the organisation directly.
There is no adequate response to the challenge of slavery in they OT. The key point is to draw a sharp distinction slavery of Hebrews and non-Hebrews.
Be gentle and Socratic and lead them into an impossible dilemma.
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Attewc
cofty: It's easier to challenge the Bible than to attack the organisation directly.
After many years of trial & error, I have found this is definitely the best approach and wish others would practice it, otherwise the mental defensive walls come up and there is no getting past them if your true intent is to get the other person to think reasonably.
What I also find fascinating is that if I criticize God directly and not the Organization, then the mental defensive walls do not come up and we can have good lengthy conversations. However once anything critical, no matter how small, is said of the organization, then the JW goes into mental lock down. For a long time I was in denial, but these experiments have opened my eyes that JW's are indeed brainwashed, which in turn makes me feel deep empathy for that person as I was also like them once.
I also find it funny that you can criticize God for many injustices recorded in the old testament (slavery, killing David/Bathsheeba's son, etc.), which in their mind is the Creator, Father, above anyone else, infallible, perfect in every way, and they will keep the conversation going all day long. Yet if you simply say that the JW Orgainzation has made mistakes in the past, their mind shuts off and fight or flight kicks in. Suddenly you realize they have mentally unknowingly put the Org above God.
Thank you for sharing cofty, I hope this helps others adopt a similar approach for dealing with the JW's as it has a higher batting average in my experience.
-Attewc
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JoenB75
I am pretty sure the early church had not survived the Romans if they had attacked their lifeblood of the slavery institution ☺️. I do not have the faith in human nature that atheists have and wonder where human civilisation had been without slavery as the backbone. Sad but true.
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Finkelstein
and wonder where human civilization had been without slavery as the backbone.
So your saying that human slavery helped to advance humanity in improving its over all sociological behavior ?
Religions and their established set of beliefs have been a form of mental and social slavery and many times have been responsible for crippling humanity in improving the life of humans.
Religions have been responsible in the avocation of human ignorance since humans involved themselves in supernatural beliefs.
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JoenB75
Finkelstein,
Slavery build great empires and civilisations, the West included. The Greeks were pretty progressive despite slavery. A greater focus on the virtues of universal human dignity came slowly with the reformation when man was ready for that ☺️. Human development is a slow proces. Whether or not it has reached equilibrium is a faith issue. I dont look at history with ideological but pragmatic glasses ☺️.
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cofty
Attewc - thanks for your comments. I intend to continue to look for opportunities to start conversations along these themes. I wonder if it still bugs Andrew?
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steve2
A tactfully and respectfully composed email, cofty. Being on the relatively brief side, it would not have been too arduous for him to read and comprehend. The absence of rhetoric is a standout. I suspect the reason he has not answered is he realized there is no defenceable response.