Jerusalem's destruction.....

by Unstuck 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Unstuck

    Hello all - so me and Stuckinarut2 are at the State Library proving to ourselves that WT has it all wrong re: 607. I've read at length JWfacts, JWsurvey and Crisis of Conscience that all go into the subject and I've just downloaded Gentile Times Reconsidered.

    While it is fabulous to have someone else compile all the research and evidence for you, it is quite another to see it in print for yourself - and so, here we are.

    While we wait for our array of books I couldn't help but share with you how the State Library has catalogued Jewish history - 586 BC to 70 AD. No mention of 607 as a key date as far as the library's catalogue is concerned!! Evidence before we have our books!!

    And so tumbles down the whole foundation of WT doctrine....(1914 wrong / 1919 wrong / FD slave chosen wrong etc etc)

  • waton

    and then there is the other destructive end of Jerusalem in 70 CE. survived by the then anointed generation that had fled to the hills. (as predicted and instructed)

    Now, wt is setting itself up for another fiasko here too, , by predicting that in the 2nd fulfillment, the anointed generation will die before the beginning of the end, contradicting Jesus' words.

    Jerusalem oh Jerusalem. no end to wt's plight with you, real, "Heavenly-" , "-Above" or "New --".

  • Finkelstein

    No mention of 607 as a key date as far as the library's catalogue is concerned!!'

    ........because it's uniquely and inherently a WTS date alone.

    Maybe the WTS should have held true to Jesus's warning about setting a time upon God's own sacred time, like most Christian based organizations do ?

    .......But then again those organizations dont have a publishing house operating at its core.

  • doubtfull1799

    Love that- even the catalogues testify to the big lie!

  • David_Jay

    As for the second date:

    The fixation on the First Jewish-Roman War (66-73 C.E.) by the Jehovah's Witnesses and other Christians is so very odd to me.

    The Second Temple did fall in 70 C.E., but it was by no means the end of the Jewish people. And it is not fully believed by academia that the Christians fled to Pella.

    It was with the Bar Kokhba revolt (132-135/36 C.E.) when the Jews were finally barred from Jerusalem. The revolt was crushed and all Jews were removed and barred from Jerusalem by the Romans in 135 C.E.

    The original Hebrew Christians had a church in Jerusalem up until then. In fact, the last Jewish bishop of Jerusalem was Judah Kyriakos, said to be the great grandson of the apostle Jude, a cousin or other close relative of Jesus of Nazareth.

    Because the Romans had caught on to the Jewish idea that the Messiah would come from the House of David, they began to slaughter as many of them as they could after 70 C.E. Since the first bishop of the Jerusalem church was St. James the Greater, a relative of Jesus, his replacements were all relatives and descendents of David, or so they claimed.

    Due to the Roman slaughter of the Ben David line, the Jerusalem church had 16 bishops from 33 to 135 C.E. when Judah Kyriakos and his Jerusalem congregation dispersed after Bar Kokhba was crushed.

    So the date for the Roman diaspora of the Jews begins not in 70 but with 135 C.E. That is when Jerusalem was emptied of all Jews and the Christians. And the "run away" to Pella may be an embellishment of sorts. There is too much evidence against it.

  • waton
    The fixation on the First Jewish-Roman War (66-73 C.E.) by the Jehovah's Witnesses and other Christians is so very odd to me.

    David Jay: thank you for the clarifications, post 2 was about the internal inconsistencies off the wt doctrines, anointed generation. That jws have a myopic world view is another of their foibles.

  • Steel

    I have always found the 607 debate kind of a moot point.

    I always thought after reading Daniel 4 and realizing the whole formula is nothing ctr taught prior to 1914, you could see the obvious scripture twisting nonsense.

  • The Searcher
    The Searcher

    Sadly, all this factual data will not and cannot be reasoned upon by the vast majority of J.W.'s who are now dumbed down by "the two greatest commandments" - obey the org & believe the org! They will simply dismiss such historians as being inaccurate - as other historians have also been.

    Which is why I personally feel that exposing blatant anti-Bible teachings such as confession to 3 elders, "new" scrolls, and the "great tribulation" myth have more chance of success with folks whose thinking has been blunted.

  • tor1500


    I have an old set of encyclopedias that my parents bought me when I was young. I think they are over 50 yrs old. You got it. Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607bc.

    Has anyone here ever gone to Jerusalem or thinking about going? Wouldn't that be the best place to get more accurate information. Sure America has records of everything and everywhere. But since it's Jerusalem we are talking about why not go to the source. I would not go to Egypt to find out about New Jersey.

    If I had the money I would go and try to find out. There seems to be many travelers on this site. Have any of you ventured to Jerusalem? Just asking


  • David_Jay

    Most Jews of the Diaspora are usually offered a sponsored trip to the homeland when we reach the age of 17. These are known as heritage or birthright trips, and they are usually made between the ages of 17-26 (though some of us go later). Many Jews have been, as I have, but some have not been able due to various circumstances.

    But you don't have to go to Jerusalem to get accurate information. It's all there in encyclopedias, the Internet, or just ask a Jew. There are many Jewish websites to learn from too, such as where anyone can get an overview of the various facets of Judaism, it's practices, and its history.

    Jerusalem was never completely destroyed either by the Babylonians or the Romans. Even the secular historical accounts are a bit exaggerated. For instance Josephus writes that more than 1.1 million people died in the Roman siege and almost 100,000 were led away as captives, leaving Jerusalem itself as a desert. The truth is that there were only about 1 million people living in the area to begin with, and there were still enough Jews living in the area from which the Bar Kokhba revolt would rise some 50 years later.

    The dates of 587 B.C.E. and of 70 C.E. are the dates of the Temples falling and the seiges, but in both cases people were still left living in Jerusalem after the Temples came down.

    We annually observe the Temple losses on a holy day of mourning we call Tisha B'Av, the 9th day of Av. Both Temples according to tradition fell on the same day, and oddly enough the Alhambra Decree of 1492 that expelled the Jews from Spain also went into effect on Tisha B'Av (though it was actually promulgated on the 7th of Av). So we yearly keep in mind what happened on these dates by particular customs.

    But the cities that stood then were not totally destroyed, per se. As I mentioned above, there is an obsession with these dates by the JWs and some Christians who teach that this is what happened. Especially the 70 C.E. siege of Jerusalem gets imagined as if all Jews were taken away and as if Josephus' account is Christian gospel. Historians know it isn't, and they strongly doubt that the Christians went to Pella as the Jerusalem Church was left intact until the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135. I am supposed to be of the tribe of Judah and House of David, and the last bishop, Kyriakos, is supposed to be a relative to my ancestral line (most of my family was already in Seferad/Spain by this time).

    Because I had relatives who were among then first Hebrew Christians, and they were living in Jerusalem when the Bar Kokhba revolt began, many scholars doubt the Pella story (or that it was as significant or supernatural as legend made it into). Judas Kyriakos was believed to have perished during the revolt in Jerusalem in 135, so what would the bishop of Jerusalem be doing in Jerusalem if there was no Jerusalem then and all the Christians had gone to Pella 50 years before? The Temple itself was completely plowed down and covered only after the Bar Kokhba revolt.

    Also, after the Bar Kokhba revolt ended, the Romans would allow Jews to enter once a year on Tisha B'Av. The city itself was not totally demolished even then. Only the Jews were barred from living there.

    The idea that Jerusalem was leveled was a convenient invention that supported the Christian view that God had totally rejected the Jews and punished them for their act of deicide. In fact, it would not be until the last quarter of the 20th century that the Roman Catholic Church would officially change its view on matters, reject the idea of the Jews being abandoned by God, and lift all charges of deicide. Since then mainstream Christianity has also abandoned the idea of a "totally demolished" and thus "rejected" Jerusalem.

    These dates the Watchtower holds to mark only Tisha B'Av, the loss of the Temples, and not the destruction of the city of Jerusalem.

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