Need help with the Trinity

by dins 18 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • dins

    Hi all,

    I have been talking to a coworker of mine about religion and it's been rather interesting; it involves accepting Christ into your heart as your saviour. Another thing is the Trinity.

    Is there anything that any of you have found in the Bible based on these beliefs. I keep reading scriptures about God being one, and Christ his son but then my coworker insists they are one in the same.

    How, if anyway. did you reconcile these issues?

    Thank you!


  • onacruse

    Hi Diana :)

    In just the few months I've been in this forum there've been quite a number of threads about the Trinity. You might like to try the "search" function.

    my coworker insists they are one in the same.

    Well, actually, the Athanasian Creed defines the Trinity in somewhat different terms.

    How, if anyway. did you reconcile these issues?

    Recently I've adopted 2 perspectives:

    1) The NT is inconsistent in it's portrayal of the nature of Christ. This is just a reflection of the "natural" development of a new doctrine. Matthew, Mark, Luke and Acts primarily recount what Jesus did, with only occasional comments that relate to Jesus' nature. Then, along comes ex-Pharisee Paul and tries to expound a more thorough (although in some respects defective) theology. Finally, as the last word, John steps in and sets the record straight: Jesus was God in the flesh.

    2) That God is infinite necessarily makes it impossible for me, a finite being, to fully comprehend how He interacts with the world. I used to be quite concerned about the Trinity being a "mystery." Now, it makes perfect sense that it would never fully make sense.


  • Francois

    That is an argument the best way to handle is avoidance. There is simply no way to win that argument, or even to argue to a draw.

    I approach that discussion by saying that we, with our time-bound, space-limited mortal minds cannot hope to achieve even a passing flash of insight into the real nature, character, and makeup of the infinite, eternal existential God. The best thing we can do, or so I say in such discussions, is to follow the two commands of Jesus: to love god with a whole soul, and our neighbor as ourselves. No where are we given any instructions to go forth and argue about the nature and character of God. If we were supposed to be about understanding the mystery of the trinity, we would have been given specific instructions to do so. We weren't. Thus the best we can do is follow the direction of The Master, which has nothing to do with an existential consideration of the trinity.


  • artful

    Diana: You have asked a question with no quick answer, therefore I apologize in advance for the extreme length of this post. These are not my words but were copied by me from a poster on this board several months ago. I'm sorry that I don't remember who to attribute this piece to. It is a very comprehensive list of questions pertaining to the deity of Christ and answers from the scriptures (NWT). If you take the time to carefully read through all of the scriptures, this may assist you with your Trinity question - at least as it pertains to Christ being of the 'same substance as God' as stated by the Nicene Council.

    Hope this is of some help.

    Happy reading


    Note: verse references marked wtih a "*" indicate a clear reference to Christ's Deity in the NWT.

    *De 6:4 Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
    *De 32:39 no gods with Jehovah

    No Other "Gods"
    *Is 44:6-8 besides me there is no God. there is no Rock besides me.
    *Is 43:10 Before me there was no God formed.
    *Is 45:5,22 with the exception of me there is no God.
    *Is 46:8-11 no other God, nor anyone like me.

    No Other "gods"
    *De 32:39 no gods with Jehovah
    *Ex 20:2-3 must not have any other gods

    *Judges 6:31 Baal, God

    *Judges 16:23-24 Dagon, god

    *2 Cor 4:4 Satan, god

    *Acts 12:21-23 Herod, a god

    ARE THERE MANY GODS OR MANY gods?*Ps 96:4-5 One True God by nature
    *Gal 4:8 those who by nature are not gods.
    *1 Cor 8:4-5 One God in 8:4. 8:5 is referring to idols who by nature are not gods, as seen in Gal 4:8

    This helps us understand that being God is much more than a title or a name. It is the very nature of the being so described as God. God is God because of who he is, not because people call him God.

    *Ac 17:24 God, Lord of heaven and earth
    *Ep 4:5-6 One Lord... one God and Father
    *Ac 4:24 God... Sovereign Lord
    *Ac 17:24 God... Lord of Heaven and Earth

    *De 10:17 Jehovah is Lord of lords
    *1Tim 6:15 Jehovah is Lord of lords

    *1 Co 8:6 one Lord, Jesus Christ
    *Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ
    *Ro 10:9 Jesus is Lord
    *Rev 17:14, 19:16 Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of lords.
    *Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

    This verse (Lk 2:11) shows that Jesus was born Lord, not that he became Lord later.

    One Lord
    *Ep 4:5-6 One Lord... one God and Father
    *1 Co 8:6 one Lord, Jesus Christ
    *Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ

    *Titus 1:3 Our Savior, God
    *Titus 3:4 Our Savior, God
    * 1 Tim 1:1 God, our Savior
    *2 Sam 22:3 God my Savior
    *Ps 7:10 God, a Savior
    *Ps 17:7 God, o Savior
    *Ps 106:21 God their Savior
    *Is 43:3 God your Savior
    *Is 45:15 God of Israel, a Savior
    *Lu 1:47 God my Savior
    *1 Tim 2:3 our Savior, God
    *1 Tim 4:10 God, who is a Savior
    *Titus 2:10 our Savior, God
    *Jude 25 the only God our Savior

    Jehovah Alone
    *Is 43:11 I am Jehovah and besides me there is no savior
    *Is 45:21 Jehovah alone is Savior
    *Hos 13:4 No savior but Jehovah
    *Is 49:26 I, Jehovah, am your Savior and Repurchaser
    *Is 60:16 I, Jehovah, am your Savior and Repurchaser

    *Php 3:20 we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ
    Titus 2:13 we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Jesus Christ.
    NWT introduces [the] into the previous verse to obscure that Jesus is called God there.
    *Titus 1:4 God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior
    *Titus 3:6 Jesus Christ our Savior
    2 Pet 1:1 our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ.
    NWT adds [the] to the previous verse to obscure the fact that Jesus is called God there.
    *John 4:42 the savior of the world
    *Ac 5:31 Chief Agent and Savior
    *Ac 13:23 a savior, Jesus
    *Ep 5:23 a savior of [this] body
    *2 Tim 1:10 our Savior, Christ
    *2 Pet 1:11 the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
    *2 Pet 2:20 the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
    *2 Pet 3:2 Who is being spoken of here? Jehovah or Jesus?
    *2 Pet 3:18 our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
    *1 John 4:14 the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world

    *Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ
    *Ep 4:5-6 one Lord, one faith. Who is the one Lord? Jehovah or Jesus?

    *Mk 2:7 God alone can forgive sin
    *Lk 5:21 God alone can forgive sin

    *Mk 2:5-7,10 Jesus forgives sin
    *Lk 5:24 Jesus forgives sin

    Ac 20:28 Why is [Son] in brackets? How can this be "understood" without being in the Greek text explicitly?

    *Ac 4:12 There is not another name under heaven by which we must be saved. Whose name is this?
    *Ac 10:43 everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name. Who is "him?"
    *John 1:12 to them he gave authority to become God's children, because they were exercising faith in his name
    *John 3:16 everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life
    *1 John 3:23 this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ
    *1 John 5:13 you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God
    *Ro 3:19-26,28 man is declared righteous by faith in Jesus
    *Ro 10:9 declare that Jesus is Lord and exercise faith... for salvation

    *Ep 3:9 God, who created all things

    Jehovah alone
    *Is 44:24 I, Jehovah..., stretching out the heavens by myself. This does not allow for a "junior partner" in creation. Jehovah clearly states that He Himself created the heavens without the aid of anyone else.
    *Is 48:13 My own hand laid the foundation of the earth and my own right hand extended out the heavens. This does not allow a "junior partner" in creation. See also Heb 3:1-4

    *Jo 1:1-3 all things came into existence through him. If Jesus is a created being then he is a "thing". But this verse says all "things" came into existence through Jesus. This excludes Jesus from the realm of "things" and puts him in the class of being uncreated, eternal, not part of the created world.
    Col 1:16 by him all [other] things were created. What is [other]? How can that be "understood" if it isn't present in the original language?
    Rev 3:14 arkhe = beginning Note: same arkhe applied to Jehovah in Rev 21:5-7. How is Jehovah the "beginning" as the WT demands that arkhe must be translated? [Should You Believe In The Trinity? p.14]
    *Ps 102:24-27 Who? Jehovah?
    *Heb 1:10-12 This is a direct quote of Ps 102:24-27 and is applied to Jesus. See also Is 44:24

    Is Jesus a "master worker" with Jehovah in creation?
    WT says yes from Prov 8:3. Prov 8 is a personification of Wisdom speaking in a feminine voice (which NWT does not accurately reflect even though WT has confessed of the speaker's feminine gender in Prov 8.) See Prov 7:4 and 9:4 for the gender of "wisdom" in Proverbs. Why did the NWT translate wisdom in chapter 8 as "it" instead of "she" as the original language indicates?

    *Is 44:6,8 Jehovah says I am the first and I am the last
    *Is 48:12 Jehovah says I am the first and I am the last

    *Rev 1:17-18 I am the First and I am the Last, and the living one; and I became dead...
    *Rev 2:8 the First and the Last, who became dead and came to life again
    *Rev 22:12-13, 20 Look! I am coming quickly, ... I am the first and the last
    *Rev 22:16,20 I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you... Yes; I am coming quickly.
    *Rev 4:8 Holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is coming.

    *Rev 1:8 Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty

    *Rev 22:12-13 Alpha and Omega = first and last. Who is this?
    *Rev 22:16 Shows Jesus as speaking in vs 12-13
    *Rev 1:12-18 Who is the Son of man? Jesus. What does he call himself? First and Last. First and Last = Alpha and Omega = the Almighty. Jesus is Almighty God.
    *Rev 22:12-13 Alpha and Omega is "coming." Is Jehovah "coming?"

    *Ex 34:14 Don't prostrate before another god.

    *Php 2:9-11 Knees bend at the name of Jesus

    *Ep 3:14 Knees bend before the Father

    Matt 4:10 Worship the Lord God only

    In all of these verses the NWT has replaced the word "worship" with "obeisance."
    Matt 2:2,11 Magi worship Christ
    Matt 14:33 Disciples worship Jesus
    Matt 28:9 the Marys worship Jesus
    Matt 28:16-17 The eleven worship Jesus
    John 9:38 The healed blind man worshipped Jesus
    Heb 1:6 All angels worship Jesus
    Rev 5:11-14 Millions of angels worship Jesus

    People worshipped other people or angels and were rebuked for it. See Rev 19:10; 22:8-9; Ac 10:25

    What is obeisance?
    Watchtower defines it as follows, "used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person..." (Reasoning, p.215) Applying the Watchtower's own definition of obeisance to the verses describing people giving obeisance to Jesus, we could say that they "prostrated themselves before a god" since Jesus is "a god" in Watchtower theology. This is a clear and logical conclusion to reach by following the Watchtower's own definition of obeisance and who they believe Jesus is. Upon reaching this conclusion we need to go immediately to the following verse.
    *Ex 34:14 For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God.

    While the Watchtower attempts to draw the unwarranted conclusion that "obeisance" to Jesus is somehow different than worship, their own definition of obeisance leads them into clear and direct conflict with Ex 34:14. Either Jesus is God or those rendering obeisance to him are guilty of "prostrating themselves before another god."

    This refutes the Watchtower's claim that "obeisance" to Jesus is ok because it is not worship. The Watchtower has inadvertently admitted that worship is given to Jesus in the Reasoning book p. 214. The question is stated as follows, "Does the fact that worship is given to Jesus prove that he is God?"

    JESUS NAME IS EXALTED IN NEW TESTAMENT*Ma 18:20 where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name
    *Lk 10:17 demons are made subject to us by use of your name
    *Ac 16:18 I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her
    *Lk 24:47 on the basis of his name repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached
    *John 1:12 to them he gave authority to become God's children, because they were exercising faith in his name
    *John 3:16 everyone exercising faith in him
    *Ac 10:43 everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name
    *1 Jo 3:23 this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ
    *1 Jo 5:13 you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God
    *Ac 4:12 there is not another name under heaven... by which we must be saved
    *Jo 14:13-14, 26 whatever you ask in my name, I will do it
    *Ac 3:16 our faith in his name has made this man strong
    *Ac 4:7-10,30 healing and signs come in the name of Jesus
    *1 Co 1:2 with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
    *Ep 1:21 far above every name named
    *Php 2:9-11 the name that is above every other name
    *Ac 1:8 you will be witnesses of me

    Jehovah alone
    *1 Ki 8:39 Jehovah alone knows all men's hearts

    *Rev 2:23 Jesus searches the hearts of all men
    *Mat 9:4 Jesus knew their thoughts
    *Mat 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts
    *Lk 6:8 Jesus knew their reasoning
    *Lk 9:47 Jesus knew the reasoning of their hearts

    Col 2:8-9 What does KIT say? Divine quality or Deity? What does "all" mean? What does "fullness" mean? Theotes vs. Theiotes or Essence vs. Quality. Theotes is "fullness" used here to describe Jesus, showing that the "essence of God dwells in him bodily." It isn't a question of him having divine qualities. Instead it shows that he is God in the flesh.

    *Ps 23:1 Jehovah is my Shepherd
    *Is 40:10-11 Jehovah is like a shepherd

    *Jo 10:11 Jesus is the fine shepherd

    *Is 10:20-21 the Mighty God, Jehovah
    *Jer 32:18 the mighty one, Jehovah

    *Is 9:6 Jesus is Mighty God

    IS JESUS GOD?In all but the last verse of the following references the NWT mistranslates each one.
    Titus 2:13
    Heb 1:8
    Ps 45:6
    2 Pe 1:1
    1 Jo 5:20
    *Is 9:6 Mighty God

    IS JESUS JEHOVAH?*Ro 10:9-13 Publicly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that he was raised from the dead and you will be saved.
    *Ro 10:9 (Whose name are you calling on for salvation?)
    *Ro 10:10 With the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation. (What public declaration? That Jesus is Lord.)
    *Ro 10:11 None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed. (Who is "him?" He is the subject of verses 9 and 10, Jesus.)
    *Ro 10:12 One Lord, rich to those calling on him. (On who? Vs 9 identifies that we are to call on Jesus by name.)
    *Ro 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." (Return to vs. 9 to see whose name must be called on to be saved. It is Jesus. What Paul was doing in vs 9-13 was clearly explaining that Jesus is God based on OT verses about God (Joel 2:32) applied directly to Jesus. Verse 9 and verse 13 are references to the same profession that saves, precisely that Jesus is Lord. Verse 13 is identifying the same one to call on for salvation that is named in verse 9.)
    *Ep 1:21 Jesus' name above every name in this system and the system to come
    *Ac 4:12 Salvation in Jesus' name alone
    *Php 2:9 Jesus' name above every other name
    *Ex 34:12-15 Jehovah's command not to prostrate before other gods. Note that Jehovah condemns little "g" gods here. If JWs were to bow before Jesus then according to their theology they would be bowing before a little "g" god. This would violate Jehovah's command. But Jehovah has said that at the name of Jesus every knee will bend. (Php 2:9-11) Would Jehovah command that people bend their knees to Jesus when he has expressly forbidden bowing before other gods?
    *Ep 3:14 compare with Php 2:9
    *Is 45:22-24 for OT parallel of bowing to the Father that Paul was quoting in Php 2:9 and applying to Jesus in saying that "every knee will bend down and every tongue will swear". It is a direct quote from the OT referring to Jehovah and is applied clearly and directly to Jesus. Paul definitely believed that Jesus is Jehovah.
    Zech 14:3-5 with Mat 25:31 and Ac 1:11-12 Who is returning with the holy ones? Jesus or Jehovah?
    Zech 14:5 with 1 Thess 3:13

    IS JESUS ALMIGHTY?*Heb 1:3 He sustains all things by the word of his power. Is this mighty or almighty? Could anything less than "all might" sustain "all things?"
    *Rev 4:8 Jehovah God, who was and is and is to come, the Almighty. Who is coming? Jehovah or Jesus?
    *Rev 22:20 Jesus is coming as identified in Rev 4:8. Jesus is Almighty God.

    IS JESUS OMNIPRESENT?*Mat 18:20 Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name
    *Mat 28:20 I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things

    DOES JESUS HAVE ALL AUTHORITY?*Ma 28:18 all means all

    WHAT IS HEADSHIP?*1 Co 11:3 Headship, not quality of being. Is man a superior human in quality compared to woman? No. Therefore this verse cannot be teaching that Christ is inferior to the Father if it is not teaching that women are inferior to men. If it is teaching that Christ is inferior in quality to the Father, then language demands that the same inferiority of quality be applied to women, and we know that it cannot be.

    WHAT DOES FIRSTBORN MEAN?*Co 1:15 Jesus is firstborn of all creation. Does this refer to order of creation or to the headship of Christ? The Greek word used is proto-tokos. There is a different Greek word that specifically means 'first created', proto-tiktos.
    *Ps 89:20-27 David was not born first.
    Also, who was Joseph's firstborn? See Ge 41:50-52, Ge 48:1-20, Ps 89:27, and Jer 31:7-9

    IS JESUS EQUAL TO JEHOVAH?*1 Cor 15:28 This verse identifies a change in the Son's position relative to the Father. What is the Son's position before subjecting himself to the Father? Equal to! This verse describes a change in position. The Son "becomes subject" to the Father. This means that at some point he is not subject and he changes position to "become subject." Note the presence of "when" and "then" in the verse.

    DOES JESUS SHARE JEHOVAH'S GLORY?*Is 6:1-5 with John 12:37-41 Isaiah's vision of Jehovah's glory is applied by John to Jesus in verse 41. He says Isaiah saw his glory. Who did John mean by [his] and who did Isaiah see?
    *Is 42:8 with John 17:5. Jehovah will not share his glory yet Jesus has glory alongside Jehovah
    *John 12:45 Can any creature claim this? No. Jesus is not like any created being.
    *Is 48:11 Jehovah will not give his glory to anyone else.

    IS JESUS THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF THE FATHER?*John 12:45 He that beholds me beholds him that sent me
    *2 Co 4:4 Christ, who is the image of God
    *He 1:3 the exact representation of his very being
    *John 8:19 if you knew me, you would know my Father also
    *John 12:44 he who puts faith in me
    *John 14:7-9 know me, know my Father also
    Col 2:9 Theotes vs. Theiotes or (Essence vs. Quality)

    IS JESUS MASTER?*Col 3:24 Slave for the Master, Christ

    *Is 8:13-14 Who? Jehovah.

    *1 Pe 2:6-8 Who? Jesus.

    *Lk 10:17 Father's name.

    *John 14:26 Jesus' name

    Jehovah alone
    *Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'"

    God and Jesus
    *Jam 1:1 James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ

    *Ro 1:1 Paul, a slave of Jesus
    *2 Co 5:15 Live for him who died for us
    *Ga 1:10 Christ's slave
    *Phil 1:1 Paul and Timothy, slaves of Jesus
    *Co 3:24 slave for the Master, Christ
    *Co 4:12 Epaphras, a slave of Jesus Christ
    *Jude 1 Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ

    *John 14:28 The Father is greater than I am
    *John 20:17 I am ascending to my God and your God
    *Ac 17:30-31 he purposes to judge by a man he has appointed
    *1 Co 11:3 Is this quality of being? Is man by nature superior to woman? Or is this headship which does not imply any innate superior quality of the one holding the headship? Yes. See 1 Co 15:28.

    *Is 43:10 "You are my witnesses" says Jehovah
    *Is 44:6-8 you are my witnesses

    *Ac 1:8 You will be witnesses of me
    *Ac 13:31 who are now his witnesses
    Ac 8:35 Philip witnessed about Jesus

    IS JESUS MICHAEL?*Dan 10:13,21 Michael, one of the foremost princes
    *Dan 12:1 Michael will stand up
    *Jude 9 when Michael had a difference with the Devil he did not dare to bring a judgment against him
    *Lk 4:8 Jesus rebukes satan
    *Heb 1:6 Let all God's angels worship him
    *Php 2:9 the name that is above every other name
    *Heb 1:6 Jesus is above all angels. The text does not say "all other angels." It says all angels and shows that Jesus is not included in that group. Thus he cannot be Michael the Archangel.

    COME TOGETHER IN JESUS' NAME*Ma 18:20 where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name

    HEALING COMES IN JESUS' NAME*Ac 4:7-10 Healed a lame man by faith in the name of Jesus
    *Ac 3:16 his name, by [our] faith in his name, has made this man strong

    SIGNS COME IN JESUS' NAME*Ac 4:30 signs and portents occur through the name of your holy servant Jesus

    DEMONS ARE SUBJECT TO JESUS' NAME*Lk 10:17 the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name

    *Jo 15:16 Father's name

    *John 14:13-14 Jesus answers
    *Lk 10:17 Jesus' name
    *Ac 7:59-60 Stephen prayed to Jesus

    IS CHRIST IN US?John 15:4-5 NWT says 'in union with us'. This is especially inconsistent seeing that similar Greek construction 'in the vine' doesn't have 'union with' inserted into it.
    John 17:23,26 Why 'union with' added to verse 23? In vs 26 same phrase of love 'in them' doesn't say 'in union with'.
    Ro 8:9-10 God's spirit in you... Christ in union with you. Vs. 9 shows the Spirit "in you." Vs. 10 says Christ is "in union with you." This obscures our deep personal relationship with Christ, with him living "in us." In vs. 9 "in you" comes from Greek [en humin]. Vs.10 also says [en humin] but the NWT chooses to obscure the issue by translating it as "in union with." Why the inconsistency?
    2 Cor 13:5 Jesus in us is the test of the faith. Once again NWT has added 'union with.' More examples of addition of 'union with': Ga 1:15-16, Ga 2:20

    IS CHRIST'S SPIRIT EQUAL TO GOD'S SPIRIT*Ro 8:9 True Christians have God's spirit and Christ's spirit dwelling in them.

    *1 Thess 1:9-10 Whom he [God] raised up from the dead
    *Ac 2:24 God raised Jesus from the dead.

    *Jo 2:19,21 I will raise it up

    *Jo 5:22-23 Jesus
    *2 Cor 5:10 Jesus

    *Ma 12:8 Jesus

    JESUS' CLAIMS ABOUT HIMSELF*Jo 5:18 The Jews understood Jesus made himself equal with God.
    *Jo 10:28-33 The Jews said "You make yourself God."
    *Jo 10:36 "I am God's Son" is a claim to a unique relationship with God. Jews considered it blasphemy because Jesus was claiming to be God by saying this. They wanted to stone him. There are five reasons for stoning:

    Spiritism Lev 20:27 Blasphemy Lev 24:10-23 False Prophecy Deut 13:5-10 Stubborn son Deut 21:18-21 Adultery or rape Deut 22:21-24 Lev 20:10

    *Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Did Jesus become Lord later or was he Lord from birth?

    *Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Did Jesus become the Christ at his baptism by John?

  • ThiChi

    Read "When Jesus Became God." Historically, you can see where the teaching comes from. You need to make the decision if God really cares.............There are many non-Trinity groups out there.

    I tend to "not to judge," it is between them and God. However, I will not join a pro-trinity teaching, knowing the truth of the matter.....

  • aChristian


    As one of Jehovah's Witnesses for many years I was, of course, fully opposed to the idea that the God of the Bible was a "Triune" God. For the first couple years after leaving the Witnesses I continued to hold strong anti-Trinity views. Several years ago I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and savior. Afterwards I decided to consider both sides of this issue a little more closely than I had done in the past.

    After doing so it wasn't long before I found myself convinced that there is much less spiritually objectionable to the Trinity doctrine than there is to the common alternative. Those who reject the Trinity normally do so because they do not view Jesus Christ as Almighty God or as One Christians should rightly worship. Non-Trinitarians almost always end up viewing Jesus as only "a perfect man" and God's chief angel. Though Christ Himself said we are to "honor the Son just as we honor the Father" (John 5:23), non-Trinitarians never seem to do anything close.

    Yet, despite the fact that all non-Trinitarians seemed to give far too little honor to Christ, I had great trouble giving serious consideration to the Trinity doctrine because my mind told me it made absolutely no sense. How could three Divine Beings make up one God? After all, 1+1+1 does not equal 1. I knew that in Kindergarten.

    I realize now that I had only one problem in believing that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit could make up one God, or that one God could manifest Himself at different times, and simultaneously, in three different forms. That was my inability to fathom the existence of anything beyond our physical world.

    But then I found out something quite interesting. I discovered that scientists now firmly believe that dimensions beyond our four physical dimensions of space and time do indeed exist. For they now tell us that even though we can only directly observe four dimensions, there must somehow, somewhere, exist at least six other dimensions. For, they say, only when we allow for the existence of these extra dimensions, in which forces operate beyond our four dimensional laws of physics, are we able to account for all the properties and principles of "quantum mechanics."

    Take, for instance, "string theory." At the very heart of string theory is the proposal that the cosmos experienced a dimensional split at 10 to the minus 43 seconds after the Big Bang began. At that instant, the ten-dimensional expanding universe split into two pieces: a six-dimensional piece that permanently ceased expanding and never produced matter, and a four dimensional piece that became our dimensions of length, width, height and time. Modern science maintains that only that four dimensional system continued to expand, eventually producing matter and stars. (see Stephen Hawking's A Brief History Of Time, 1988)

    Now, since modern science believes in the existence of dimensions beyond the four we experience, it seemed to me that I should be able to believe that God exists both in and beyond the four space time dimensions in which we exist. For if as the Bible says God created our physical universe, He would not be bound by the laws of the physical universe which He had created any more than I would be bound by a cage I made to keep my parakeets in. While my birds would be locked inside the width, height and depth constraints of the cage I made, I would not be so constrained. If as the Bible says God created our physical universe, He would have to be omnipresent. For, if He was not, He would be bound by the width, height and depth constraints of the "cage" He had made. The same goes for other natural laws. If God made them, He must have existed before they were made, and so He would not then have been bound by them. And He would not now be bound by them either, unless He chose to climb inside the "cage" He made, close the door and throw away the key.

    I also learned that Einstein proved that time is only a dimension of our physical universe. And that time began when our physical universe began. Thus, if Christ existed "with God" (John1:1) before the creation of our physical universe He must have existed before time began, and His origin can truthfully be said to be "from the days of time indefinite." (Micah 5:2 NWT) Or for those who prefer plain English, "from everlasting," and "from the days of eternity." (KJV, NAS) So, though in one sense God's Son had a beginning, in another sense He did not. For if Jesus Christ has existed since before time began, when did He begin?

    It also helped me to remember that Jesus Christ is God's "Only Begotten Son." (John 3:16) To be "begotten," according to both the Biblical and dictionary definitions, means to be produced, not out of nothing, but from a parent's own body. For instance, the Bible tells us that Abraham "begat Isaac" "from his own body." (Gen.15:4; 25:19) And it is widely understood that Isaac pictured Jesus Christ.

    Children who are begotten by a human parent, once they are full grown, are also absolutely equal to their parents in every way. In physical stature, in strength, in intelligence, etc. Granted, the child may not have the same position in business or government as his father but, in reality, that child is the parent's equal in every way. I, for instance, will always show my father the special honor a son shows to his father, but at the same time I will always be my father's equal. So, if Jesus Christ was begotten from his Father's own body, so to speak, before time began, he is both eternal (without a beginning in time), as Micah 5:2 says, and his Father's equal, as Philippians 2:6 tells us in most translations of the Bible.

    Another thing I kept in mind was that our fathers are three dimensional physical people. As such they occupy only a few cubic feet of space. As their sons, begotten from their bodies, we too are three dimensional people who occupy only a few cubic feet of space. For fathers who beget sons always do so "after their own kind," so to speak. Now the Bible tells us that God is not a three dimensional being occupying only a few cubic feet of space. The Bible indicates God is omnipresent. He exists everywhere at the same time. So, if Christ was begotten from God's own body, so to speak, and "after his kind," so to speak, He too would have God's own omnipresent nature.

    When I was born the cord connecting my mother and I was cut. At that time I was no longer physically a part of either one of my parents. We soon became even more "disconnected" when I was placed in the hospital nursery fifty feet down the hall. Right now I might be in New York and both my parents might be thousands of miles away from me in California. But if God begat a Son after His own kind, so to speak, He and His Son would both be of the same substance, and thus both omnipresent. If this is so, it becomes very difficult to think of them as two separate Spirit Beings. And since they both have and send forth the same Holy Spirit, as Scripture says they do, from their mutual omnipresent position, it is not difficult to think of God as "three in one." In fact it then becomes more difficult to think of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as separate entities.

    I am now convinced that all the Scriptures pertaining to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and to their Deity, can only be understood and fully harmonized by someone who does not attempt to put the God of the Bible into some kind of four dimensional box.

    I believe my feelings in this regard are signs of spiritual growth.

  • kat_newmas

    One simple verse comes to mind.... "I am ALL things".

    Pretty broad statement don't you think. Try telling your friend that if they really believe that is the word of God, then they should know that it is not upon man to try to put limitations on that. Instead of arguing about God... simply try to find the wisdom in the bible.... like love, and forgiveness, and long-suffering, tolerance and kindness. Focus on those things, and one cannot go wrong. That doesnt mean you should stop searching for the Dweller of the Heavens.... but I usually find that those that are too interested in "doctrine" and symantics... arent really looking for "God". They are looking for confrontation.

  • czarofmischief

    The trinity simply isn't in the Bible. However, if you choose to believe in it, that's your business. I'm with Francois on this one (surprisingly). The Trinity makes no difference on how humans are to live their lives. The Two Greatest Commandments do! Was Jesus God? Who knows? Who cares, really, believe as you like. Remember, it's not what we believe that gets us our eternal reward, it is "doing the will of the Father". Which is to take care of widows and orphans and whatnot.


  • Francois

    Virtually everything said about Jehovah in these lengthy posts can also be said about Allah.

    A book written about Jehovah, by followers of Jehovah, is simply not worth the paper it's written on. If you substitute the word "camel" for Jehovah, you'll get my point.

    These posts are an exercise in futility.


  • Sangdigger

    a christian, thanks for that interesting post. You broke it down probably better than i could have ever done.

    One thing i wanted to mention was the doctrine of the trinity takes on different forms for different people. Just because someone says they believe in "the trinity" doesnt mean they believe in the same trinity doctrine the early church fathers taught.

    One form of the doctrine claims that the Father, Son, and Spirit are the same person. The argument used is that a person can be a Father and a Son at the same time, and thats what God is, and he manifest himself in different ways. This is reffered to as Modelness or Oneness.

    The original doctrine of course states that God is made up of 3 persons. All equal in power and nature and one in agreement. I believe this is the God of scripture, as pointed out in the above posts.

    THe bible says that a man and a woman when joined in marriage, become ONE FLESH. That to me is a mystery in itself. I believe Christ is in submission to the Father much like a wife is in submission to the husband, or a human son to his father. But he is the same in nature, equal in power, and does the Fathers will.

    I remember the JW's using the argument that Jesus couldnt be God, or he would be praying to himself in the Garden (and elsewhere when he was a man) but that would maybe only disprove modelness or oneness, not the 3 persons in One doctrine.

    When you get right down to it, as Francois basically said, do we need a God we can figure out anyway?

    But if Jesus isnt God, then why are we told to worship him, when only God is worthy of our worship?

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