Christianity is the worst disaster in human history!

by happysunshine 59 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Abaddon said: But returning to your original point, the strawman attack that "if the jesusneverexisted site wished to disprove the existence of one of the other Jesus's that the site would have listed Jesus of Nazareth as a historical figure along with the others", from the above you can see it to be untrue, as bar the suspect paragraph, there's not the evidence to list Jesus with the other Jesuses.

    That is the whole point Hooberus

    Speaking of the main point here. The jesusneverexisted.com site lists several other Jesuses which the site authors consider to be historical persons. It would be interesting to comapre the evidence for the existence of these persons with the evidence for the existance of Jesus of Nazareth. If there is just as much evidence for the existance of Jesus of Nazareth as for these other Jesuses then the site as well as those who hold to the views on the site, are if they still don't believe in the historicity of Jesus guilty of double standards.

    If someone could please pick say two of the other Jeusus and then list the historical evidence for them, then we can make a comparison, of the evidence for them as well as the evidence for Jesus.

    Abaddon, I am working on the related, but somewhat different issue of the account in Matthew which you refer to.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    The jesusneverexisted.com site says:

    Josephus, the first century Jewish historian mentions no fewer than nineteen different Yeshuas/Jesii, about half of them contemporaries of the supposed Christ! In his Antiquities, of the twenty -eight high priests who held office from the reign of Herod the Great to the fall of the Temple, no fewer than four bore the name Jesus: Jesus ben Phiabi, Jesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel. Even Saint Paul makes reference to a rival magician, preaching ‘another Jesus’ (2 Corinthians 11,4). The surfeit of early Jesuses includes:

    What the site doesn't mention here is that the same book of Josephus that talks about Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel also talks about James the brother of Jesus who was called Christ. The reference to Jesus Christ is even in the same chapter as the others, and even in the same paragraph as one of the others!

    While the site mentions and disputes the first reference of Josephus regarding Jesus, I can't find where it even mentions the second reference to Jesus which is generally accepted. The site uses Joesphus as a source for the historicity of Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel and ignores the reference to Jesus who was called Christ (a reference which occurrs in the same book, chapter, and even paragraph!).

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Abaddon, I'll try to deal with your question, it may take a few posts though. I'll try to consolidate them if I am within the edit time. I know that your question referrs to other accounts besides Matthew, however I'll first deal with the dating of Matthew since the dating is relevant to the time of Matthew 27:53 as well as the fact that the jesusneverexisted.com "date" of Matthew makes it to old to have been written by Matthew himself.

    Was Matthew written close to the time of the events that it describes?

    Regarding Matthew, the jesusneverexisted.com site says:

    A Greek-speaking Jew, writing in the pagan city of Antioch shortly after the riots of 117 C.E. had convulsed Palestine and the diaspora was at pains to reassure the Roman state that his particular creed posed no threat to the imperium. The writer, a follower of the Rabbi Saul, having fled 'fundamentalist' Jerusalem for the relatively enlightened pagan city of Antioch, took a copy of 'Mark' as the basis for his own ‘story’ and concocted what would eventually become known as 'Matthew.'

    Many scholars (conservative and liberal) date Matthew before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. It was sited by two early writers that I am aware of, both who lived prior to the date of "after . . . 117 CE" given as the date of Matthew by the above site.

    Clement of Rome (A.D. 95) who quoted from: Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, 1 Corinthians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict p. 44

    Ignatius (A.D. 70-110) who quoted from: Matthew, John, Acts, Romans, 1Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Collossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, James, and 1 Peter The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict p. 44

    Halley's Bible Handbook also states that both Clement of Rome and Ignatius quoted from or alluded to Matthew, as well as the dates of their references being A.D. 95 and A.D. 110 respectively.

    Also early church tradition teaches that Matthew was the first Gospel written, and that it was indeed written by Matthew, hense for some one to claim that someone other than Matthew wrote it, and that it was written at a late date (as the above site does), is to dismiss primary evidence in favor of speculation based on no primary evidence.

    Conclusion: There is plenty of evidence to show that the gospel of Matthew was early and hense close to the time of the events that matthew 27:50-54 described. I'll now move on to a discussion of the verse in question, then later on to your point about other contemporary accounts.

    Matthew 27:50-54

    [50] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    [51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    [52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
    [54] Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

    Abaddon said: Also, as is traditional in these discussions, I must ask you why there is no corroberation from contemporary accounts of the dead rising when Jesus was ressurected and going around preaching. People might have noticed this. Even if they weren't dancing to 'Thriller' at the time, people would have probably made some note of large numbers of dead people wandering around.

    Nowhere does the text directly state that these resurrected individuals went "around preaching", the text simply states that they "appeared unto many." Nor does the text say how long they remained. It is also important to realize that the resurrection from the dead is also a restoration of the body that died. Hense these people would not not necessarily look half-rotten or goulish. They would simply be recognized as people who had died and who now were appearing to many. So the event may not have been as dramatic as it is often portrayed.

    Other Contemporary Accounts?

    These types of resurrection people (probably in normal form, like Lazarus was raised) form the basis for one argument of the first apologists of the faith, Quadratus. He was an very early 2nd century apologist (writing sometime during the reign of Hadrian, 117-138ad), and we have only one fragment of his (cited from GASC:36):

    "But our Savior's works were permanent, for they were real. Those who had been cured or rose from the dead not only appeared to be cured or raised but were permanent, not only during our Savior's stay on earth, but also after his departure. They remained for a considerable period, so that some of them even reached our times."

    Now it would be highly unusual for someone raised in 33 ad to live naturally another 90-100 years (to the times of Quadratus' writings) but this is not necessarily the scope of his reference to 'our times'...this latter phrase could often mean plus-or-minus 50-75 years, allowing SOME of these saints to die naturally again (as would have the resurrected Lazarus, the widow's son, etc.) after a few decades.

    The point is that resurrections are not isolated phenomena--they were a bit more widespread than the few individual cases mentioned in the gospels would lead us to believe...Eutychus by Paul, the group at the Crucifixion--indeed, even Ireneaus--a half century later--could write of resurrections in Christian Churches (A.H. 2.32.4)...

    Indeed, stories and legends of these risen saints circulated and were embellished over time. They show up in several of the NT apocryphal works (e.g. The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 7.1-2, Gospel of Nicodemus 17ff). For example, in this later work (Gospel of Nicodemus/Acts of Pilate), there is the story of Simeon and his sons (living in Arimathea), who were raised at that time, whose tombs were still open (for inspection!), and who wrote sworn testimony to their resurrection. While many of these stories are no doubt fanciful embellishments of the passage in Matthew (apocryphal writings generally "filled in the gaps" left by the biblical writers), there may be some historical core behind such related stories as this one about Simeon.

    http://www.christian-thinktank.com/oddrise.html

    So far the closest (date wise) account to the one in Matthew that I have found is the account given by Quadratus (which is also printed in The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict). The account might be related to the resurrection in Matthew, or to others who were resurrected by Jesus before his crucifixion. While the account by Quadratus is much later than the events described in Matthew, the fact that he referrs to "some that even reached into our times" seems to give his writings some relevance.

    Ouestions:

    Since first century historical accounts are limited to what extent would one expect to find evidence from other historical sources about such an event? Such an event probably would not have been included in secular histories. The only sources that I can think of that might be expected to possibly contain such an account would be those sources which wrote detailed histories of Jerusalem. How many first century writers wrote detailed histories about Jerusalem? Josephus comes to mind, but does anyone else? My knowledge of first century historical sources is limited, so if anyone can think of another source which should reasonably have included the account in Matthew 27 please list it. Otherwise the issue may simply be why did Josephus who wrote first century historical accounts of Jerusalem not give a contemporary account of Matthew 27:53 if such an event really occurred?

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    The following site gives an overview of the evidence for the Historicity of Jesus. I have been able to confirm from other sources (including hard volumes) some of the information on the site, and it appears to be a well documented site which appeals to extant evidence rather than to speculation like the jesusneverexisted.com site does. The site has several pages which inorder to view a person might need to type the page number in after the "HistJesus" section of the address.

    http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus1.htm

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    hooberus, you miss the point. There is no correlation of the dead being raised as refered to in Matthew (I remember something about them preaching from the NWT but may be mistaken and it may be mistaken if I'm not) becuae it didn't happen.

    People who were dead coming alive again is normally commented on. The fact that there are so few comments on it, and those comments do not have breadth of support, combined with the fact there has been no verified proof of it happening, means to me that when its mentioned it's make believe.

    I love the way that you try to use the fact that they were not rotting or zombie like as an excuse for the lack of corrobation. As if that would make any difference to the effect dozens of people coming alive and walking around Jerusalem! It says they were seen by 'many people' and that implies those people seeing them had full realisation of their ex-dead status, totherwise there wouldn't be any point in making the statement.

    No matter how hard you hit it, the peg is still sqaure and the hole is still round.

    But you obviously desperately need to validate a literalictic interpreattion of the Bible, no matter what, including adjusting your interpretation of liklihood, reasonableness, probability and reality to do so.

    You also cheat; you've changed the topic on threads when it's suited you, but in the thread on abiogenesis, because you can't deal with the questions you hypocritically complain about me doing it to evade engaging in a debate that worries you.

    In light of this, could you tell me what point there is in discussing things with you? I had a boy in a class I took once. We were doing light. He was confused by the fact colurs of light mix differently to colurs of pigment. Although I went through ti one-on-one with him, and showed that indeed this is so, he kept on insisting that every example I asked him to predict would end up the way it should if the colurs were pigments, when we were working with light. I found that exasperating, and suffer the same with you at time.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Abaddon said: People who were dead coming alive again is normally commented on. The fact that there are so few comments on it, and those comments do not have breadth of support, combined with the fact there has been no verified proof of it happening, means to me that when its mentioned it's make believe.

    In who's account should we expect to find this event? Since first century historical accounts are limited to what extent would one expect to find evidence from other historical sources about such an event? Such an event probably would not have been included in secular histories. The only sources that I can think of that might be expected to possibly contain such an account would be those sources which wrote detailed histories of Jerusalem. How many first century writers wrote detailed histories about Jerusalem? Josephus comes to mind, but does anyone else? My knowledge of first century historical sources is limited, so if anyone can think of another source which should reasonably have included the account in Matthew 27 please list it. Otherwise the issue may simply be why did Josephus who wrote first century historical accounts of Jerusalem not give a contemporary account of Matthew 27:53 if such an event really occurred?

    Abaddon said: I love the way that you try to use the fact that they were not rotting or zombie like as an excuse for the lack of corrobation. As if that would make any difference to the effect dozens of people coming alive and walking around Jerusalem! It says they were seen by 'many people' and that implies those people seeing them had full realisation of their ex-dead status, totherwise there wouldn't be any point in making the statement.

    My reference to the fact that they were not rotting or zombie like, was primarily to clear up the caricature of the event (Abaddon:"Thriller" Gumby: "night of the living dead") which (humorously) attempted to make the event more dramatic than it was.

  • Chap
    Chap

    I saw on the jesusneverexisted site that the Apostle Paul stated lying was ok. Romans 3:7 was used. This was clearly taken out of context to falsely prove what the people who wrote the site want to believe. I do not know about the other person. Here is the text in context. Judge for yourselves.

    Romans 3:1-8 King James Version
    What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? [2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. [3] For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? [4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. [5] But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) [6] God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? [7] For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? [8] And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

  • Chap
    Chap

    I cannot think of one country that was founded totally on goodness but it can be argued that the authors of America's founding documents put their concept of God in their writings. If you read the history of George Washington, you know that he feared God. Patrick Henry may have been a born again Christian. The three branches of government seem parallel to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There was no government in history that turned the tables in the manner that the USA works where the one (or few) is supposed to serve the many. This allowed people to be free to worship as they pleased and to invent things that raised the standard of living. America than became a dominant country in a little over 100 years. We now enjoy things that the world never knew and I argue that if Jesus Christ hadn't lived on earth, these things would not be.

    If you had to choose between "Middle Age Christianity" and America that better exemplified the teachings of Jesus Christ, which would you choose? I know what my choice would be.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Since first century historical accounts are limited to what extent would one expect to find evidence from other historical sources about such an event? Such an event probably would not have been included in secular histories.

    Hooberus, that arguement is pants and I think you know it. People coming alive would have been news that would have reached Rome. The only reason you say it probably wouldn't be included in secular histories is that, despite the fact such a statement is illogical, it is the only way you can maintain your faith-based viewpoint of Biblical veracity.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Hooberus, that arguement is pants and I think you know it. People coming alive would have been news that would have reached Rome. The only reason you say it probably wouldn't be included in secular histories is that, despite the fact such a statement is illogical, it is the only way you can maintain your faith-based viewpoint of Biblical veracity.

    The news of this very well may have reached Rome, I don't know. The reason that it probably wouldn't have been included in secular histories is due to:

    • It was a supernatural event which may have only lasted but a few days.
    • It was confined to one city.
    • It did not involve the policical or military leaders of the city.

    The above reasons would make its inclusion in secular histories very unlikely.

    Whereas my argument that it probably would not have been included in secular histories is based on deductive arguments, your argument on this issue is one based on two faulty premises:

    1. Your false caricature of the event (ie: "Thriller" and "going around preaching")

    2. An argument from silence (ie: "No one else recorded the event so it must not be true.")

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