"Raymond Franz: You did not go to heaven"

by opusdei1972 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  opusdei1972

  That was the title that I found in a blog. This blog belongs to a Witness Apologist. Indeed, I was shocked on account of the arrogancy. So, I started the discussion by asking him: "Have you been in Heaven, so you did not see him?". Then the apologist argued that Ray lost his position in the 144000 group on account of his apostasy. So I asked him: "where do you find in the NT that only 144000 go to heaven?". He answered that in the Bible it is clear that the great crowd and the 144000 have different destinies. Accordingly, I showed the following verse for the great crowd:

  That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. (Rev 7:15, NWT)

  Note that the NWT translated the greek word NAOS by temple, however, note how the NWT translated the same greek word in the following verse:

  
  
  "And the temple sanctuary of God in heaven was opened....." (Rev 11:19, NWT)

  So, the NWT committee knew that the greek word NAOS does not mean merely "temple", but, in the context of the Jerusalem temple, it was the sanctuary, where only priests can enter. Also, in this context, the NAOS of God is his heavenly habitation. For this fact, when we read in Revelation 7:15 that the great crowd is the NAOS of God, we clearly understand that they are in heaven. However, the Watchtower Society teaches that the great crowd is seen on earth in Revelation 7:15. This is of course a lie, and this is why the NWT did not want to translate NAOS by sanctuary in Revelation 7:15.

  So what was the answer of this Witness Apologist before this clear proof?. He said: "you are a quack, because even the teachers of Greek do not understand well Koiné Greek, so your argument does not prove that the great crowd is a heavenly class. If you want to go to heaven, you will be disappointed. "

  The fact is that I did not say that I want to go to heaven, I only wanted to show to this stupid witness that the book of Revelation does not teach what the Watchtower teaches.
  
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  Magnum

  Good points. I agree. I believe that the organization, including Fred Franz, was deceptive in this matter. There was an article published in the Watchtower (1990's?) in which Franz discussed naos; the evidence indicates that he was deliberately deceptive. I've been intending to do a study on it and was going to start a thread on the results.

  He said: "you are a quack, because even the teachers of Greek do not understand well Koiné Greek, so your argument does not prove that the great crowd is a heavenly class. If you want to go to heaven, you will be disappointed. "

  Logical fallacy. Ad hominem argument. He attacked his opponent rather than address the issue. That's because he had no answer.
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  opusdei1972

  Magnum : This witness apologist even ignores that the Watchtower has been treating for many decades to hide the fact that the great crowd is seen in heaven.

  In the beginning, the Watchtower said that the great crowd was seen in courtyard of the gentiles of the temple. But this statement is clearly dishonest, because the sanctuary (NAOS), where the great crowd is seen in Rev 7:15, can't represent a courtyard, because the sanctuary was the inner place of the temple only for priests. This fact already destroys the Watchtower's argument that ony the 144000 are priests. So, in 2002 year, the Watchtower had to invent a "new light", admitting that the great crowd can't be in the courtyard:

  In times past, it has been said that the great crowd is in a spiritual equivalent, or an antitype, of the Court of the Gentiles that existed in Jesus’ day. However, further research has revealed at least five reasons why that is not so. (w02 5/1, "Question for readers")

  So, the Watchtower, in the same article had to place the John's vision of the temple, not related to the Herod's temple, but in the Solomon temple. However, for the Solomon's temple, the Septuagint used the greek word NAOS for the HEKAL (read 2 Chr 3:17), which was the inner place of the temple only for jews. Were not the 144000 the only spiritual christian jews according to the Watchtower teaching?. Furthermore, in Psalm 11:4 the Septuagint reads "The Lord is in his holy NAOS, in heaven is his throne". So, it is clear that the NAOS of God in Rev 7:15 is in heaven, so the Watchtower's argument does not work.
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  DesirousOfChange

  If ANYONE has made it to heaven.........surely they would let us know it.

  Doc
  
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  John Aquila

  DesirousOfChange

  If ANYONE has made it to heaven.........surely they would let us know it.

  
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  steve2

  In heaven, not in heaven, on earth, not on earth, on and on the exchanges go, each one stitching himself/herself to a view that provides its own proof, its own settlement. Meantime, on earth the only life we know without a scintilla of doubt is consumed with life in heaven, or not in heaven, and if not there, then on earth but if not there then no where and on and on it goes. One generation following another and another across the millenia consumed with where they will or will not stand.
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  SecretSlaveClass

  Well,said Steve.
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  leaving_quietly

  So this apologist is now talking to the dead???
  
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  opusdei1972

  No matter if heaven exists or not, the point is that Witnesses think that they have a superior theology ignoring that they even ignore the Bible itself.
  
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  joe134cd

  If 1914, 1925, 1975, a rafter of sex abuse claims, and now a Greek word, won't wake them up then nothing will my friend. Don't waste your breath on the antics of mad Freddie.