War or No War --- The Dispute

by hornetsnest 14 Replies latest jw friends

  • hornetsnest
    hornetsnest

    I usually don't get involved in things like this, as I've long known the futility and uselessness of arguing with jello. However, for the benefit of those looking on and wondering where the truth really lies, I figured I'd say a few things.

    back2dafront made quite a spiel over on another thread about how terrible it is to serve in the armed forces, and I must say that the tears of purple koolade were just pouring down my cheeks in rivers. He's such an abused little fellow ... Personally, I'll bet my wife's been shot at more than he has. (Yes, she has been shot at.)

    But there is one thing that rubs me wrong about attitudes such as his and anti-absolutism's (I think his handle was). You see, all of my life, even as a kid, I found myself as being the court of last resort. If someone had a problem, and no one knew how to fix it, they'd come to me hoping against hope that I could do something about it. It gives me a sense of satisfaction to look back and realize that I succeeded more often than not. (I'm 62 now.)

    But one of the eternal vexations of that life has been the 10s of thousands of times that someone would come to me and I would explain what the problem was, how to avoid it, and what would happen if it was not handled in the correct manner, only to have them laugh at, scorn, or condemn me for suggesting it. That in itself wasn't bad, as I've always felt that we should all have the freedom to make our own decisions, though I did resent their ridicule, endless accusations of evil motives, and complete refusal to face any reality, even their own.

    But the thing that did bother me is that as soon as they run merrily into the trap that I had already told them about and that happened exactly as I told them it would, they immediately come whining and crying to me expecting me to bail their worthless butts out of their jam, usually with the attitude that I should thank them for the privilege, as well as apologize for not having fixed the pitfall before they ran into it.

    The liberal "peaceniks" of the world are the most useless batch of despicable morons this poor innocent earth has even been infested with, even to themselves. 90% of the problems they find themselves in is directly due to the fact that they cannot or will not face reality, and always demand that someone else face it for them. They come on with the "I'm soooo innocent!" routine with their patented little quiver of the lower lip and the pitiful attitude and the single little tear that rolls oh so slowly down their cheek. (They spend a half-hour every morning in front of the mirror practicing these things.)

    They'll mess their pants and throw tantrums in the street because they don't have hamburger's to eat, then turn right around and do it again because you killed a cow to make it for them. LIke lice, they have no concern about anyone or anything except their own delusional fantacies of self glory and intelligence, while sucking the blood of those around about them. They endlessly yammer on about all the marvelous things they are doing for mankind, but in reality you could give them a boxcar full of crowbars to 'protect' and they'd have the whole works ruined in 48 hours.

    But all of that is nothing, compared to the bloodguilt on their hands. They are the enablers who, by reason of the fact that they will not face reality, make the very existence of the world's monsters possible. They, by their cowardice, provide the fertilizer the monsters need to grow. They are the one who, having caused many of the conditions that bred the monsters, against the advice of those who know what they are talking about, make it necessary for young men to go out and shoot others. And all the while they continue their incessant blather about how innocent they are and how much they care, while roundly condemning those who are forced to go clean up the messes they made. Bull pucky!

    A friend sent an article to me the other day that covers this very subject. It's written by Mark Steyn of the National Post. I don't expect the liberal peaceniks to agree with it or even understand it, for there is no way they could do so with a depth of intelligence and insight that is best compared to the gild on a $2.00 ring. But for you young ones who haven't got brain damage from sitting on them so much, read this article and think about it, then compare it to the self-centered rantings of the liberals.

    Here it is:

    The Curtain Will Come Down on the Peaceniks

    Mark Steyn

    National Post

    Monday, February 17, 2003

    The "peace" marches? Oh, I've nothing to say. Can't improve on Tony Blair, looking out of his window and observing:

    "If there are 500,000 on that march, that is still less than the number of people whose deaths Saddam has been responsible for. If there are one million, that is still less than the number of people who died in the wars he started."

    In other words, if it's a numbers game, those are the ones that matter. I'm tempted to leave it there and go skiing, but let me come back to it in a roundabout sort of way.

    The other day I got a copy of Andrew Roberts' new book, Hitler And Churchill: Secrets Of Leadership, which sounds like some lame-o management techniques cash-in, but is, in fact, a very useful take on very familiar material. Most of us have read a gazillion books about the Second World War (when I say "most of us," I exclude the fellow in Hyde Park on Saturday holding a placard with the words "PEACE IN OUR TIME," and even then I kind of hope he was some waggish saboteur, since the notion that the peaceniks, though deluded, are that ignorant is a little mind-boggling).

    But, comparing Britain's and Germany's wartime leaders directly, you can't help feeling that victory and defeat were predetermined: As Philip Hensher neatly put it in his review of Roberts' essay, "Churchill knew very well what Hitler was like, but Hitler had no idea what sort of man Churchill was."

    Just so. When you read Hitler's private assessments of the man who stood between him and world domination, they're just silly: Churchill was "that puppet of Jewry." OK, that's fine as a bit of red meat tossed to the crowd when you're foaming at Nuremberg, but as a serious evaluation of your opponent made in the quiet of your study it's simply ... inadequate. This failure to engage with reality is particularly telling when you look at how each leader dealt with setbacks: During the Blitz, Churchill would stand on the roof and watch the Luftwaffe bombing London; in the morning, he would walk through the ruins. Hitler, by contrast, never visited bombed-out areas and, just in case the driver should take a wrong turn, he drove the streets with his car windows curtained. His final days were spent in a bunker -- the perfect ending for a man whose worldview depended on keeping reality at bay no matter how relentlessly it closed in on him.

    Hitler's problem was that he was over-invested in ideology. He'd invented a universal theory -- the wickedness of the international Jewish conspiracy -- and he persisted in fitting every square peg of cold hard reality into that theory's round hole. Thus, Churchill must be a "puppet of Jewry." As a general rule, when it's reality versus delusion, bet on reality.

    That held true in the Cold War. Moral equivalists like Harold Pinter insisted that America and the Soviet Union were both equally bad. But the traffic across the Berlin Wall was all one way. East German guards were not unduly overworked trying to keep people from getting in. The Eastern bloc collapsed because it was a lie, and the alternative wasn't.

    Well, the Soviet Union's gone now so Pinter no longer has to observe the pox-on-both-their-houses niceties. Addressing the demonstrators on Saturday, he declared that the U.S. is "a country run by a bunch of criminals ... with Tony Blair as a hired Christian thug."

    Got that? It's not Saddam who's the thug, it's Tony. It's not the Baathist killers from Tikrit who are the bunch of criminals, it's the Republican Party. It's not the million-man murderer of Baghdad who's the new Hitler, it's George W. Bush. It's not the Iraqi one-party state with its government-controlled media that "crushes dissent," it's the White House. It's not the Wahhabis who are the fundamentalists, it's Bush, Blair and the other Christians. It's not Osama bin Laden who's the terrorist, it's American foreign policy. Supporting the continued enslavement of the Iraqi people is "pacifist," but it's "racist" for America to disagree with the UN, even though it's Colin Powell and Condi Rice doing the disagreeing and the fellows they're disagreeing with are a bunch of white guys from Europe.

    The new Universal Theory, to which 99% of Saturday's speakers and placards enthusiastically subscribed, is that, whatever the problem, American imperialist cowboy aggression is to blame.

    In fact, it's not so different from the old Universal Theory, in that the international Zionist conspiracy is assumed to be behind the scenes controlling the cowboys: Bush is a "puppet of Jewry," just like Churchill was -- notwithstanding the fact that America's Jews voted overwhelmingly for Gore.

    But, if you believe that the first non-imperialist great power in modern history is the source of all the world's woes, then logic is irrelevant. "It's all about oil"? Yes, for the French, whose stake in Iraqi oil is far more of a determining factor than America's ever has been or will be. "America created Saddam"? No, not really, the French and Germans and Russians have sold him far more stuff, and Paris built him that reactor which would have made him a nuclear power by now, if the Israelis hadn't destroyed it in the Eighties.

    But, as Colin Powell and Jack Straw have surely learned by now, there's no real point doing the patient line-by-line rebuttal: Nobody's interested in French oil contracts or German arms sales or even Saddamite corpse tallies because it doesn't fit into the Universal Theory which insists that everything can be explained by the Evil of America. On the other hand, the indestructible belief that "over 4,000" civilians were killed by U.S. bombs in Afghanistan is impervious to scientific evidence because it accords perfectly with the Universal Theory.

    How far are the "peace" crowd prepared to go? Well, they've stopped talking about their little pet cause of the Nineties, East Timor, ever since the guys who blew up that Bali nightclub and whoever's putting together those "Osama" audio tapes started listing support for East Timor's independence as one of the Islamist grievances against the West. But why be surprised? In fall 2001, being pro-gay and pro-feminist didn't stop the left defending an Afghan regime that disenfranchised women and executed homosexuals. Yet these are the same fellows who insist that a secular regime like Iraq's would never make common cause with Islamic fundamentalists, apparently requiring a higher degree of intellectual coherence of Saddam than of themselves.

    You can believe all this if you want, just as Harold Pinter believed that the Iron Curtain was only there to prevent fleeing Westerners from swamping Warsaw Pact social services. But it depends on keeping reality at arm's length or beyond: You're metaphorically driving around with the curtains drawn. Perhaps that's why so many of the "peace" crowd get ever so touchy if you question their slogans. If you ask a guy with an "It's All About Oil" sign what he thinks of the recent contracts signed between Iraq and France's Total Fina Elf, he looks blank for a moment and then accuses you of wanting to crush dissent. It's not fair, you're trying to pull back his curtain.

    I bet on reality.

    The defining difference between Hitler and Churchill is that, while the former presided over a court of sycophants, the latter thrived on argument and antagonism. (Lord Alanbrooke's diaries are especially recommended in this regard.) He had a not untypical background for an Englishman of his time and class -- an unexceptional public school education, a bit of colonial adventuring. It's what the multiculturalists would have us believe was a narrow and blinkered upbringing. Yet an English public-school debating-society approach to life served him in good stead: He was utterly at ease with disagreement, quite happy to have any assertion tested. In Saturday's demonstrations, the heirs to Churchill's Harrow schoolmasters were well represented -- lots of teachers and professors. Yet the difference between now and then is their reluctance to expose their assertions to debate -- these days few institutions are as aggressively protective of their fragile little pieties as the academy.

    Well, so be it. If everybody thought like Saturday's marchers, it would be curtains for all of us. But we're not quite there yet, and reality will be breaking in very soon. Saying that Bush is the real "weapon of mass destruction" is awful cute the first nine or ten thousand times, but only if you live in Toronto or Paris or Madrid. Viewed by an Iraqi from the reality of Basra, it's pathetic.

    © Copyright 2003 National Post

    And as an apology to the French people who I have been in the habit recently of grouping into the same generalized category as their "leader," here is an email I saw directed to

    www.ejectejecteject.com Some of you might enjoy the material contained there… At least there seems to be one Frog who has a bit of common sense and remembers what history should have taught us all.

    SHW

    "…We French learned the hard way what you gain from appeasement (even if some retarded ones seem to have forgotten).

    Because in 1936 when German troops occupied Rhenania they had orders to withdraw in front of any French troop and Hitler had told he would resign. And the reason was that the still puny German army had not a chance. In 1938 when Germany invaded Austria we still could have crushed it with ease…

    So when I think in appeasement, I think in the 1940 humiliation, in the occupation, in the millions of dead, in the atrocities in Yugoslavia, Poland and Russia, in the Russian prisoners used to test the gas chambers, in Mengele's experiments, in the Jews and gipsy newborns slaughtered for the crime of being born Jews or gipsy. All of this could have been prevented without blood shed if we had taken action when Germany occupied Rhenania, all of this could have been prevented at a far lesser cost if we had taken any of the other golden opportunities we had. That is what you get when you let the monster grow instead of quashing him when he is small and weak.

    And there is another thing: when you fail to quash the monster you are _responsible_ for his crimes. The Nazis were trialed at Nuremberg and some of them (far too few) were hanged for their crimes, but there should have been another trial at Munich for the appeasers and pacifists who had made those horrors possible. And I see no reason why some of them shouldn't have been hanged just like the high ranking Nazis were. "

    Amen to that.

    LoneWolf

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    There is a saying that "those who refuse to learn from history are condemed to repeat it." Encouraged by the latest round of anti-war protests, Saddam is reneging on his pledge to cooperate with the UN weapons inspectors. It is ironic that those who participated in these rallies are bringing about the very thing they were protesting against. The only thing that is going to prevent the war in Iraq is a decision by Saddam to stop playing games and declare his illegal arms and open them up for inspection. He is not going to stop playing as long as he thinks he can win in the court of public opinion.

  • Trauma_Hound
    Trauma_Hound

    Your both a couple of morons, did you even pay attention to the protests, this wasn't a bunch of "peaceniks" this was socker mom, veterans, old people etc. Your both idiots, and I'm tire of the right wing fanatical crap heads chomping at the bit, and labeling everyone one thing, hey dung hole I eat read meat, I were leather, and I can probibly kick your bum.

  • Trauma_Hound
    Trauma_Hound

    In fact your not smart enough, to have actually put this thread into the right catagory.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    War is FINE if there is international consensus, i.e., a unarguable mandate from the UN.

    It is VITAL for world stability in the next decade or so that it happens this way, because for a self-elected elite of world powers to declare themselves above international law would mean that developuing countries would see that they cannot be trusted, as they allow two sets of rules, one for them and their friends, and one for everyone else.

    Most protestors are for the removal od Saddam, but most protestors believe two wrongs do not make a right.

    This is the only point in my opinion, as all other points ar secondary to it, as it has the greatest long term impact.

    And unless someone has answered this point I've been making in the other threads where the pro-war lobby have been foaming at the mouth with ludicrous statements about the protestors, and generally evading any issue they can't answer satisfactorily, this point remanins unanswered.

    I have no doubt that this hread will also not give any justification to an elite group of powers breaking the trust of the developing world and creating a double standard for their own benefit.

  • CC Ryder
    CC Ryder

    Saddam needs to be stopped! Bottom line! The above article LoneWolf posted shows a lesson in history. If you let evil alone it will grow strong and pose a major problem later on. Someone has to take the initutive, and I'm glad I live in the country that has the balls to do something about it.

    CC

  • back2dafront
    back2dafront

    Hornetsnest,

    <big yawn>

    okay newbie. first off you know NOTHING about me so don't even try to pretend.

    Your words were a little insulting, but whatever....it's all good.

    Yeah, I've never been shot at and hopefully never will be. Being shot at is nothing to be proud of in my book. You've either been to war (which is understandable and part of the package) or you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time or you were doing something you had no business doing. I lived in NYC for 5 years and never even got mugged. I know how to handle myself. I'm a smart "little boy."

    It really burns me up to have someone make rash statements about me when they know NOTHING about me, but due to the rules of this board I will hold my tongue back.

    if you're going to slam my posts, at least quote them so all can see what total bs i'm saying and how your ideas prove them wrong. without the quotes your jibberish doesn't mean a darn thing.

    But one of the eternal vexations of that life has been the 10s of thousands of times that someone would come to me and I would explain what the problem was, how to avoid it, and what would happen if it was not handled in the correct manner, only to have them laugh at, scorn, or condemn me for suggesting it. That in itself wasn't bad, as I've always felt that we should all have the freedom to make our own decisions, though I did resent their ridicule, endless accusations of evil motives, and complete refusal to face any reality, even their own.

    So evidently with all your age and wisdom you know without question this war is the right thing to do and that everything will be okay after we go in there, find Sadaam and either kill him or arrest him. We'll set up a democracy and then we can all go back to our lives like nothing ever happened. The world will be rid of evil, the USA will not even benefit from the oil, and we will reside peacefully with the Arabs over there. Since Sadaam is secretly supplying them with weapons, they will not be able to get this weapons any longer, therefore the USA will be safe from further terror attacks. The USA will stay positioned in Iraq and will make sure the person that runs the democracy for that country will not participate in the same horrible crimes that Sadaam has inflicted on his country for all these years. If somehow this new president is evil as well, we will quickly remove him and find another to run the system. Nobody in Iraq will mind, in fact they are welcoming this change with arms wide open. The neighboring countries see no problem with this either, or if they do they're too afraid to say anything about it, so they'll just sit back and let the imperialistic western civilization they all hate take over a fellow muslim country and just try to pretend it never happened. Meanwhile Bush will call off the construction of the pipeline to Asia for too many people are findind out about it and he doesn't want anyone to think that had anything to do with the invasion of Iraq. He will also dismantle all the army bases that have been built close to this pipeline for the Middle East will be at peace and there will be no threat by anyone to disrupt the progress of this pipeline.

    Once again the "peaceniks" will have been proven wrong (as usual), Bush's approval ratings will soar sky high, the whole country will turn Republican and vote him back into office (yes, he'll REALLY win this time), the economy will make a turn around and there will be more jobs than you can shake a stick at. My stock portfolio will read + 10K like 2 years ago instead of -10K like it is currently. He'll still not sign the Kyoto treaty and we will continue to lead the world in polluting the environment, but that's okay because terror alerts will be a thing of the past.

    Yeah, you guys have everything all figured out. Well, this whole thing will be going down really soon now, and if things go your way, feel free to rub my face in it, but realize when they don't I'm gonna slam you really hard. For the others that I've had discussions with on this board, I'll merely say "I told you so!" or vice versa, and it'll be all good cuz we're cool like that, but you I will take personal satisfaction in picking apart every part of your lame post and blowing it wide open.

    Oh...one more thing....all this comparison of Sadaam and Hitler...you know...it's two totally different scenarios. Does Sadaam want to eliminate all Christians? Maybe he does, but do you really think he'd be able to pull something like that off??? He knows his country is under tight survelliance and the second he gets out of line he's history. So his best bet is to do what he's been doing - horde all the money he can and build immense palaces for himself so that he can make himself look all big and mighty. Maybe he really does have some scheme to leave his mark on the world or on the USA but he's not the only one. If Bush wants to go after all of our potential threats one by one, so be it. It's just not going to be a pretty picture and it's definitely not going to go smoothly. If this war is the best thing to do I guess all of us will be convinced of that in a few short weeks.

    If you are as wise as you claim to be and you want to challenge me, feel free to pick any statement and provide your argument, but please refrain from making further personal attacks on my character. I'm a man of reason but refuse to converse with anyone that talks in circles, is overly-critical and never establishes one vital point.

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed
    War is FINE if there is international consensus, i.e., a unarguable mandate from the UN.

    If you substitute League of Nations for UN, I do believe you will see this is the same attitude that enabled Hitler to gain the power he had. That seems to be the whole point of the article. How do any of you propose to ever gain an "unarguable mandate" from the UN when you have a nation ready to empower Saddam at every turn? Yes, France, not the US.

    Another point continually missed is that this coming war can be stopped before any shots are fired by all standing up to Saddam and demanding he disarm, as previously mandated, unarguably, by the UN back in 1991. Saddam can see the discord worldwide and just as general Giaap of the North Vietnamese Army long ago, uses that discord to continue arming and extending the inspections. If 12 years isn't enough time for him to disarm, what is?

    Abaddon, I hate to tell you, but your points are being addressed in other threads, just not in the manner you want. Sorry if you don't get the answers stated as you wish, but an answer is still an answer. This is not a Watchtower Study where the answers are predetermined.

  • CoonDawg
    CoonDawg

    My thoughts turn to those of disgust. I look at the history books and how so many of us are authorities when it comes to hindsight. Even as a Highschool student, I looked at the train of events that led to different conflicts and pompously thought..."Couldn't those dummies see that they were headed for war? Why does everyone always act like it's such a surprise? Couldn't anyone see where the alliances in Europe were leading in the early part of the century? Didn't anyone pay attention to the aggressive stance of Germany, Italy, and Japan in the 1930's?"

    I almost have to laugh at myself now. What fools we are. These people saw what was coming as they inexorably closed with the destinies of their nations. The common men read the newspapers and listened to their radios, and they read letters from family abroad. They too could see the fate of their nations just as clearly as we see ours today. Yet, the common man and woman realized that they had little influence over the fate of their nations....or even of the themselves.

    It is a bittersweet understanding to realize only now, as the midnight hour approaches. Only now do I finally have empathy for our forebearers. Only now do I come down off of the pedestal of superiority, both moral and intellectual, and see that I, just as my forefathers, am at the mercy of the winds of history.

    Coon

  • back2dafront
    back2dafront

    Hey Dakota, can you expound on this a little more? I'm not sure I understand clearly.

    Another point continually missed is that this coming war can be stopped before any shots are fired by all standing up to Saddam and demanding he disarm, as previously mandated, unarguably, by the UN back in 1991. Saddam can see the discord worldwide and just as general Giaap of the North Vietnamese Army long ago, uses that discord to continue arming and extending the inspections. If 12 years isn't enough time for him to disarm, what is?

    So....the whole world says, "sadaam, DISARM - NOW!"

    Then what? He shows everyone where the weapons are, we or he destroys them and problem solved?

    Or he refuses to disarm (more likely) and the world gathers it's forces and invades?

    Why doesn't he hide some weapons and then say he's disarming by giving the rest up, and then start rebuilding his arsenal again?

    I'm just not sure I understand how you said the war could be stopped....if you could help me out there....

    I think everything should be given a deadline personally. I believe it was a good move to step up the inspections - shoot, we never should of left. But I don't think it should last forever either. Anyways...

    back2dafront

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