THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE

by Nowhere 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Nowhere

  : "I'm wondering if Nowhere believes a "soul" enters the fertilized egg (hmmmm), if so I could see how it doesn't matter."

  You don't see how it doesn't matter? Ok, I'll put it like this, the universe doesn't depend on you or me being born, but it does depend on a small set of constants and laws. If we were discussing the fascinating fact that you were born, then your sperm-theory would be interesting, now it has absolutely nothing to do with the point.You are clinging to JW logic. The fact that you or me being born, in spite of the extremely low probability, doesn't in any way prove that the universe is formed by mere chance. It is called independence.

  You cannot prove one unbelievable fact, by pointing to another unbelievable fact, who doesn't depend on the first one. Also basic probabillity theory.

  And in my view, we already know why a certain sperm won the race, it wasn't due to pure chance, it was due to the initial conditions, different initial conditions would also provide a winning sperm, different initial conditions for the universe, would not. So unless you can show me that any universe would be good for life, I'll just stick to the anthropic principle in the meantime.
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  lauralisa

  THIS THREAD ROCKS
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  funkyderek

  Nowhere,

  I'm not entirely sure what your point is. Are you trying to use the anthropic principle to prove there is a god, or to prove that none is needed or something else altogether?
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  Tashawaa

  Nowhere - this is my last post on this subject.

  Firstly, I have a sense of humor, and often use it when someone is being too serious. Lighten up, its only a Theory, and I'm free to express my point of view.

  Second, in expressing my point of view, I do not appreciate you swinging mud and telling me that I'm clinging to JW logic. God, give me a break. If you don't accept my reasoning, fine - but don't lower yourself to degrading my point of view.

  Third, I've started other posts and the member's have either agreed or disagreed with me - added their thoughts, expanded my viewpoint, etc. That's the point of this board... if you feel backed into a corner with your reasoning, perhaps accept a different perspective (and disregard it if necessary - I'm disregarding yours)... but show some manners.

  Ohhhhh - one last thought. Since time is indefinite, could it be possible that instead of there being multiple universes (simultaneously) perhaps this universe has experienced the various combinations already. I personally believe "life" is hardy, not rare, and exists in the most difficult of conditions.
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  anti-absolutism

  All this theory stuff. It's wonderful!!! Wouldn't life be so much more boring if we were perfect and knew all the answers?

  OH WAIT A SECOND!!!!! I used to know everything and believed I was on the verge of perfection. It was called JWism. And jumping Jehosafat (purposely misspelled to ensure my perfectionistic needs are not fulfilled..... lol) my life is certainly a lot more enjoyable now that there are so many theories that I allow to enter my mind...

  Brad
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  Elsewhere

  why is our universe favorable to human existence?

  This is a very arrogant thought... suggesting that the universe is custom designed for us.

  Another, more likely, answer is that life formed around the natural properties of the universe.

  If there are other universes and they also have life, then the life in them will also be formed around the natural properties of each universe.
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  funkyderek

  why is our universe favorable to human existence?

  Well most of it isn't. We live on a tiny planet, outside of which we haven't a hope of surviving. Come to think of it, nearly four-fifths of our tiny planet is covered in water and we have no gills.
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  rem

  why is our universe favorable to human existence?

  I just love comments like this. It's just so... idunno... quaint and anthropocentric don'tcha think? If anything, the universe is favorable to the existance of rocks. There are tons of rocks in the universe... much more rock than humans. There are rocks in space, rocks in the ocean, rocks in ice, rocks all over the place... places humans cannot survive without a lot of help. I think the universe is god's little rock collection. He probably doesn't even know we exist... life could just be an unexpected consequence of his rock collection!

  Life as we know it (including human life) just exists as a thin film on an insignificant rock spinning around an ordinary star in a shady suburb of a common galaxy among billions. Yep, certainly looks like this lil' universe was created just for human life!

  rem
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  Abaddon

  Nowhere, where in the world did you equate a theory of everything with the Universe being explained by the anthropic principle?

  If the universe is unique, the theory of everything is what we have to hope for, if not, then the anthropic principle is the most logical explanation. Do you understand?

  I'm sorry Nowhere. I understand the subject you are talking about quite well. But the above linkage escapes me.

  The TOE could show there are multiple Universes, and that there is 'room' for every probability in them, and the fact we happen to be in one where we can say "fancy that, we exist" is just a dumb fact without hidden meaning.

  The TOE could show that the Universe had to be this way, or near this way, and that therefore the fact we happen to be here to say "fancy that, we exist" is just a dumb fact without hidden meaning.

  The TOE could show that the Universe could only be this way, and that the fact we happen to be here to say "fancy that, we exist" is just a dumb fact without hidden meaning.

  Us being here means nothing no matter what the TOE says.

  This bit;

  It means, if this isn't the first or if this is just one of many universes, there isn't such a mystery why the probability seems to be so small. Sooner or later it is going to happen.

  But you cling to the theory of a very very unlikely scenario. Why?

  ... doesn't make sense. You are saying that it is sooner or later going to happen, AND that it is a very very unlikely scenario? If something is sooner or later going to happen, the probability is one divided by the number of possible outcomes. Probability=1. 100%. 1 in 1. A cert.

  So you ask, why? and I ask "why you ask why?" "It bleedin' obious", (sorry, had a boss who spoke like that... "why ask why, go do, if you no ask you have done by now!"). I believe that because it seems likely in the absense of any proof of a teleological Universe (from human standpoint) that the Universe is as it seems. Sans dieu. Inferring meaning in apparent design is speculation without knowledge of the variables involved.

  For me it's Occam's Razor - the simplest explaination is most likely to be true.

  Either there is a disinterested creator thingumy, which we can't prove, or there is no creator thingumy.

  All the theories about interested creator thingumies fall over on the basis of internal logic alone, before you get to the complete and total lack of evidence of any reliable form throughout the whole of human history of any creator thingumy being anything other than a nice idea, something to scare the children with, a way of dealing with misery by concerted make-believe, or a damn good way to become rich and powerful.

  And all of them rely on interior proof to answer the question of lack of proof from a concerned creator thingy, which I believe is a reasonable thing to expect, otherwise it becomes internalised with no probvable 'right', as many of many beliefs claim this same internalised proof, and often disagree with other people who also have internal proofs. To not provide proof is to allow chaos, and contradicts the concept of a caring creator.

  I believe that there is a one and only possible universe (for life), only one winner, but here you turn around and tells me that any universe can be the winner, and we are here due to pure chance, that life could have evolved from any universe.

  Not any Universe. If you thought I implied that, I'm sorry. We can only speculate about how likely our Universe is. What we can do is point out that there is life in places we thought impossible in our Universe (the tiny little bit we've looked at), and that just 'cause we can't think of what it might be like, doesn't mean that there may or may not be life elsewhere in conditions in this Universe allows that would not support our species.

  We also cannot exclude the possibility of life able to ask itself the same questions as we do in Universes we would similary not be able to live in. As both quantities are unknown, it is all speculation, or as you describe it, belief.

  I see that you are satisfied with the explanation that we are here due to pure chance, I am not, that is not an explanation.

  Nah, I believe we're here due to probabilities. Lots of them.

  I believe there is an explanation for all this.

  You can, it's okay. But you don't have proof, and the lack is a logical problem inescapable without internal proof.

  Go here;

  http://quasar.as.utexas.edu/anthropic.html

  Brilliant article, very funny!
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  Abaddon

  Nowhere; hey, if you're busy it's cool, but don't bail out on the thread, this is an interesting conversation.