The folly of Watchtower's theodicy. Or, why would an all-powerful and all-wise God need to justify his sovereignty through suffering?

by Island Man 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Island Man
    Island Man

    Watchtower says that evil and suffering exist at present to vindicate Jehovah as being the only one qualified to govern; to bear witness to man's inability to govern himself independent of God and under Satan's direction.

    The claim is made that the questions raised by Satan regarding God's motives as universal sovereign can only be answered by allowing humans to see the evil and suffering that results when man lives independent of God's protection and direction.

    Watchtower and JWs seem to think that this is the best theodicy in the world. But there are some serious flaws in it.

    1. Such a theodicy suggests that all perfect and intelligent creation, up until the advent of Adam and Eve, did not know God and his ways well enough to be confident that his motives as universal sovereign are pure. How long have the angels been in existence? Man was created 6040 years ago, according to JWs. The universe is over 13 billion years old according to scientists and this age is not disputed by Watchtower. Since Watchtower teaches that the angels were made before the universe, then it means that God had more than 13 billion years to reveal his heart and motives to his perfect intelligent creation yet failed to do so well enough as to avert any questioning of his motives and the rightfulness of his sovereignty when Satan rebelled. This in and of itself is an indictment of God's way of ruling. Furthermore, are the angels too dumb to figure out that the one who created them and universe must be far more knowledgeable than they are and thus the one most qualified to govern, without first having to see humans suffer when God is removed from driver's seat?

    2. If we ignore the folly of 1. then there's the problem of mankind and satan not being given a fair opportunity to make their case. Up until Adam and Eve's disobedience, God was governing perfect beings. So the question of sovereignty is really a question of whether or not perfect intelligent beings can successfully govern themselves independent of God. However, upon their disobedience, Adam and Eve were cursed by God with imperfection that leads to death. Thus mankind is deprived of the perfect mind and long life required to transparently and adequately make his case. Furthermore, the book of Genesis records God further thwarting man's effort to make his case by confusing human language at Babel. God is actually on record as saying that he has to do this because nothing would be impossible for man to achieve if he allows them to continue their efforts unitedly. It doesn't get any more damning that this. The bible shows that God is not playing fair - that God is not giving mankind a fair opportunity to prove that they can govern themselves independent of him, contrary to Watchotwer's claim.

    3. The claim is made by Watchtower, that if God secretly stepped in to avert disasters and suffering whenever they are about to occur, then that will give the false impression that satan and mankind are able to govern independent of God without problems arising. But why would God's stepping in have to be done secretly? What if he stepped in publicly during a disaster, to save lives and prevent suffering, and to expose to the public how mankind's way of ruling led to the disaster? That would have the effect of still showing that mankind cannot successfully govern himself independent of God, while at the same time proving that he is a loving and caring God who does not want people to die and suffer needlessly - that he does not see humans as expendable pawns in his quest to prove satan a liar; that he is willing to forego enjoying the greater propaganda victory that comes from mankind's failures causing death and suffering, out of love for humans.

  • TheListener
    TheListener
    I really like those points Island Man.
  • Giordano
    Giordano

    Interesting point of view.

    Furthermore, the book of Genesis records God further thwarting man's effort to make his case by confusing human language at Babel. God is actually on record as saying that he has to do this because nothing would be impossible for man to achieve if he allows them to continue their efforts unitedly.

    So how has that worked out for god? Lets see mankind made it to the Moon, invented the nuclear bomb built enough of them to kill every living thing on the planet. Eradicated many diseases. Can transplant the human heart and we are just getting started.

    What has god been doing? He murdered everyone alive during the great flood except Noah and family and a few animals. After the murder he sent a rainbow which is on par with sending a Hallmark card to someone who is dying. 'Nice to know you wouldn't want to be you.'

    Now he and his heavenly hoard want to go that route one more time?

    No sirree god it's time to put you in the Prince Albert can and back on the shelf of bad ideas.



  • prologos
    prologos
    The interfering by "god", taking away "perfection", flood, babel are loving provisions to improve the loyalty of creatures, just as the interference by wt with dissenters, faders is. copy cats or two of an unkind kind, kind-of?
  • stuffwotifink
    stuffwotifink

    It always got me that after all this suffering and woe... After mankind Finally understands and can see how much we need god to rule over everything for us... Once the point is made for all time, never to be questioned by mankind again...

    "The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

    It will all be for nothing - because nobody remembers the lesson learned. Well played Yahweh, well played.

  • John Aquila
    John Aquila
    stuffwotifink 29 minutes ago
    It always got me that after all this suffering and woe... After mankind Finally understands and can see how much we need god to rule over everything for us... Once the point is made for all time, never to be questioned by mankind again...

    You forgot to mention what will happen after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

    Another freaking test!

    And to top it all off, the WT says the lake of fire will always exist for any dissenters who get tired of living in paradise and want to have sex. Remember those that are resurrected can not have sex, they can only look and wish. Anything more than looking and wishing, even just a small "touch" and into the lake of fire you go.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    When I was still (more or less) a believer, I had a bit of trouble with this, too... until I concluded that the ultimate expression of "man's inability to rule himself" would be if he brought himself to the brink of extinction.

    However, that conclusion also inevitably forced me to conclude that - by those standards - we were still a long way off.

    Kinda hard to get rid of 7 billion of anything, after all.

  • tidalblitz
    tidalblitz
    And to top it all off, the WT says the lake of fire will always exist for any dissenters who get tired of living in paradise and want to have sex. Remember those that are resurrected can not have sex, they can only look and wish. Anything more than looking and wishing, even just a small "touch" and into the lake of fire you go.

    Yup, no sex. Isn't that just a recipe for disaster? Lots of people will have to spend all of eternity being celibate? Impossible! I mean, there will be a whole lot of resurrected ones being thrown into the lake of fire..

  • stuffwotifink
    stuffwotifink
    "Remember those that are resurrected can not have sex, they can only look and wish"

    In a world without clothes too.
  • Island Man
    Island Man
    It always got me that after all this suffering and woe... After mankind Finally understands and can see how much we need god to rule over everything for us... Once the point is made for all time, never to be questioned by mankind again...
    "The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."
    It will all be for nothing - because nobody remembers the lesson learned. Well played Yahweh, well played.

    That's another very good point I forgot to mention.

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