Visit from Elder re: doctrine !!!!!

by Iron Eagle 6 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Iron Eagle

  Hi folks

  Does anybody remember a while back I posted a topic concerning Jesus mediatorship ? I asked If anybody could show me quotes from the Watchtower that state that Jesus only acts as mediator towards the 144,000 .

  Id just like to thank everybody that contributed to helping me find these quotes, they were very helpful as was http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/.

  After an elder finally decided to come visit me after at least 2 months of total inactivity, I discussed with him various issues and the issue of Jesus being mediator only for the 144,000.

  When I confronted him on these issues, he stated that JW's follow the bible to the letter . He shown me 1 Timothy 2:5 , where it states that there is ONE mediator between men and God , Jesus Christ . I asked him about the societys stance on the matter , but he was adament that I had somehow misread the Societys publications , and that they have NEVER said that Jesus only acts in this role for the 144,000 ; because the scriptures state overwise.

  The meeting went on for about 40 minutes , and I somehow managed to discuss with him the heavenly hope also. I could tell that he just thought that I was confused , and offered me a bible study ! Lets just say I politly turned him down.

  After the meeting however , he asked me If I wanted him to return with some answers for the questions I had asked him . Regarding the heavenly hope , I quoted to him Mat 8:11 : 'And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven '

  Amazingly , when I asked him about this verse , he looked at it puzzled like he had never seen it before , and then asked me where I had read it , adding that It is the kind of verse that an apostate would come out with . I then quoted his earlier words ... ' I thought JW's take everything from the bible to the letter '..

  He then left with 2 questions from somebody who was supposadly 'weak in the faith' . As yet , I have heard no word from him about any of the issues I confronted him with . Perhaps he has read in the societys publications that Jesus acts only as mediator for the 144,000 ? ( *** Watchtower 1979 April 1 p.31 Questions from Readers *** , *** Watchtower 1991 February 15 pp.15-20 "You Were Bought With a Price" *** ) If that Is the case , then maybe the JW's dont take verything that the bible says to the letter !

  Funnily enough , I was e mailing a Ministerial Servant yesterday who was acting as a 'mediator' between myself and this elder. In the e mail I asked him whether or not anybody was actually going to answer my questions !

  Thanks again everybody for all of your help on this . Next post I'll tell you about the letter I recieved from this elder , and the subsequent visit I recieved from another elder I have known for a long time who was SO disgusted at the manner in which this letter was wrote that he took It to show It to somebody else !! Stay tuned ........
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  BluesBrother

  Does it not show that elders are not what they used to be ! .. The gaps in their knowlege can be appalling . When we tried to discuss the exercise of Christian conscience with our then P O , he was unaware of the stance taken by the Org. When we referrred to articles we remembered, he shrugged and said he had not been on the truth then - and it was clear that he did not care to look them up.

  Incidentally, I think any J W worth their salt could have discussed Mathew 8. Jesus had just healed the manservant of an army officer . Jesus commended his faith and said that many foreigners would one day come into the Kingdom . At that time he was preaching only to Israel. At the Cornelius' house some years later holy spirit came on to the Gentiles who could then join in.

  I hope that I am not stating the obvious but that seems to be all that Jesus meant .
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  abbagail

  Excellent job, Iron Eagle! That Matt. 8:11 scripture evidently had gone right over my JW-head in years past as well. As for Jesus being the mediator to the 144,000 only, maybe that elder was catching up on some Zzzzz's when that was being discussed at the meeting (if it ever was; you know how they stick those little "goodies" in where they may go unnoticed except for the highly astute)!

  You have me hanging in suspense as to the further developments regarding the letter! Do tell!
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  Iron Eagle

  I will tell when I finally get the letter back .... I think he may have got in trouble himself for showing it to others !!!

  Give me a few days !!!
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  justhuman

  Nice job...same thing happened to me when I show them from the Bible that jerusalim was not distroyed in 607, but 587, they were so CONFUSED...
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  johnny cip

  iron eagle;;; very good ,,,, trust me , go with what ever you know to bang the wt.... and hold them to it. at all costs don't let them out of the box...and don't be nice , stand your ground if you like to work 1914...hold them on it.... but say you want proof from wt books up till 1914 only .... that's all i want to study lets start a 2 year study on russells books....duh... lets go to egypt and measure the pyramids. duh ,,,, lets talk about 1776, 80 1798-99 1829 1831 , 1844.45 65 1872,73,1874 .75 78,81 1905-07 1910-12 1914, 1915 etc get out the studies in the sciptures,,, i want to study the roots of the tree of the wt... jesus said that a tree with rotten roots can not bare good fruit... was that tree thrown in the fire in 1914 or before that... go into the quack medicine the wt was teaching then... . say lets get out the telescope, so we can see jehovah on the planet ancloyne.... get out the tape measure and offer to measure their head to see if they are qualified to to the preaching work , let them know that if black people pray hard enough god will make them white,,,, the list goes on and on ... show them NO QUARTER!!!!!... STAY ON THE SUBJECT.... and always ask over and over was any of this WORSHIP THAT WAS ACCEPTABLE TO JEHOVAH..... I FACT never let them talk just pound the shit out of them.... and say next time you come, you better have some of those old books to BACK UP THAT RUSSELLS WAS THE FDS....... WITH THIS TYPE OF NONSTOP ARGUEMENT... you can knockout the whole hall ,, in one shot.. this would be a good talk in front of the whole cong. freedom in christ .........john
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  Sherwood

  Iron Eagle
  After the meeting however , he asked me If I wanted him to return with some answers for the questions I had asked him . Regarding the heavenly hope , I quoted to him Mat 8:11 : 'And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven '

  Amazingly , when I asked him about this verse , he looked at it puzzled like he had never seen it before , and then asked me where I had read it , adding that It is the kind of verse that an apostate would come out with . I then quoted his earlier words ... ' I thought JW's take everything from the bible to the letter '..
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  NWT Matthew 8:11-12
  But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; 12 whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside.

  NWT Luke 13:28-29
  28 There is where [YOUR] weeping and the gnashing of [YOUR] teeth will be, when YOU see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves thrown outside. 29 Furthermore, people will come from eastern parts and western, and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God.

  >>> OK then, isn't the scripture below a contradiction?

  NWT Matthew 11:11-12
  11 Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 But from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it.

  It is only after Jesus' resurrection (the first to be resurrected from the dead) whereby a person can be a literal resurrected spirit member in the Kingdom of the Heavens. Unless Jesus lied about Abraham and Isaac and Jacob going in the kingdom of the heavens, one has to spiritually interpret what Jesus meant. While a JW has tunnel vision into a highly privileged elite class to interpret these scriptures, we need not go down such a path.

  The 'Kingdom of the Heavens' of Daniel 2:44 will "take over the earth" and will stand to time indefinite without any replacement. So, who is to say Jesus isn't predicting that these earthly resurrected Scribes & Pharisees will fail in the 1,000 year Judgment Day while the earthly resurrection of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will succeed in proving themselves worthy before the Son of man.

  Sherwood

  Edited by - Sherwood on 10 February 2003 22:3:12