How registering as a JW in Germany benefits the WT/Org

by OrphanCrow 24 Replies latest jw friends

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow
    Slim: It puzzles me that more citizens in secular European countries don’t opt out of church tax

    Apparently the changes in church tax (tax on capital gains was recently added) has led to a sharp drop in church membership in both Catholic and Protestant faiths:

    Hundreds of thousands of German Christians are formally renouncing their faith and leaving the church in order to escape a controversial change in the tax laws.
    Up to 200,000 Germans are believed to have filed official declarations last year renouncing their membership of the Protestant church, the highest number in almost two decades. A similar number are thought to have left the Catholic Church.

    Church members in Germany are required by law to pay tax to fund church activities, which is collected by the government.

    Under German law, anyone who was baptised as a child is automatically amember of the church and obliged to pay the tax, charged as a percentage of their income, regardless of their beliefs or whether they attend church services.

    Until recently, many Christians have been prepared to pay the extra tax for the benefits it brings them, including access to church schools and day care facilities that are funded by the state.

    But the only way out of paying the tax is to make a formal declaration renouncing your membership of the church – and there is a government fee for this as well.

    A decision to extend the 8 or 9 per cent charge to capital gains income, or the profit earned from selling an asset, appears to have sparked the sharp decline in church membership.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11380968/Compulsory-income-tax-on-Christians-drives-Germans-away-from-Protestant-and-Catholic-churches.html

    As I understand it JWs are entitled to collect tax in various European countries but have not done so. Is there evidence they are beginning to collect tax?

    I don't have any evidence of that.

    However, whether the org collects that compulsory tax or not, the org, as a "public law" status religion, is now in the position to collect that tax and that means that they have the right to access income tax records of their members. Either that, or turn their membership roll over to the government to collect that compulsory tax.

    How the org actually handles this new found power is not public information, but the possibility that they hold income information on JWs cannot be discounted. Yes, there are privacy laws but the assumption would be that the org is responsible in how they handle that sensitive data under privacy laws.

    If the org has chosen the second option - to be their own tax collectors of that compulsory church tax from its membership - even if they don't actually levy a tax on their members, it still leaves them in the position of accessing income records and "making shepherding calls" on targeted pensioners to "discuss estate planning".

    Legally, the org is in the position to collect tax on any capital gains that its members make. Whether they do it or not is another matter.

    How will the org use their power as tax collectors? I don't know. But, I have a hard time believing that all those years of the org fighting for public law status in Germany was done so that elders had less work (and saved admin costs in filing reports) and children in school didn't get teased for belonging to a sect instead of a religion (as the org article states).

  • TheWonderofYou
    TheWonderofYou
    Crphan Crow: "discuss estate planning".

    Dear Crow, a little bit of information about estate planning instead of holiday planning in the pension....

    The official journal of the religion JW in Austria published 2010 a new constituion for the new state religion.

    The JW laywers (the JW layer is one of the best laywers in religious law in Austria) worked out the JW constitution for the state.

    In paragraph 14 how the contributions are handled in Austria.

    First the constitution according to § 13 says that baptism and affiliation to a local congregation are both premises for the membership in the religious association.
    Secondly regarding the funds the JW constituiton reads that the society usually ACCEPTS [not encashes] donations and other grants in cash or asset value as well as heritage and legacy, which it receives to promote its goals and uses how it seems utile to her to fulfill the goals of this constitution.
    Further in case that grants or heritages are not clearly classable to be given to a certain division or institution, the religious SOCIETY is presumed to be preconceived.
    The [foreign] governing body monitors [the Austrian] directors and the disposition of the funds annually.[and however does not report voluntarily about its findings and is of course not oblidged to do so]]

    Should the case occur that the funds are not sufficient enough to guarantee financiation of the religious society the branch office is allowed to stipulate temporarily or permanently a contribution and ist allowed to determine the regulations for such a contribution.

    https://www.jehovas-zeugen.at/uploads/media/Jahrgang_2010__Nr.1.pdf

    This already the actual constitutional law in Austria. It is awaited that the JW have to guarantee their own financiation.

    This is the link with all offical journals of the religion since 2010. This is the constitution.

    Under LAW ("RECHT") you find all official journals and all decrees.

    https://www.jehovas-zeugen.at/Recht.41.0.html

    - Decree- constitution

    https://www.jehovas-zeugen.at/uploads/media/Verfassung.pdf

    Here you find also a special "investment management law" for JW in Austria

    https://www.jehovas-zeugen.at/uploads/media/Verm%C3%B6gensverwaltungsgesetz.pdf

    or a

    "Accident prevention law" for JW in Austria

    https://www.jehovas-zeugen.at/uploads/media/Unfallverh%C3%BCtungsgesetz.pdf

    It seems the Austrian law of JW is a mastermind for the worldwide organisation.

    Now let us wait for the certainly on 25th of May coming Austrian GDPR reacting to the "EU General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR") that applies with 25th of May.

    Austrias_JW have an own "seal decree", they are legally allowed herewith to use an embossed seal on documents. It has to be used to gether with blue ink!. For documnts and certificates. (So the online-communcation is not so secure in Austria. There JW would like to introduce the monarchial constitutional hierarchy again ;_)

    https://www.jehovas-zeugen.at/uploads/media/Siegelordnung.pdf

  • TheWonderofYou
    TheWonderofYou

    Text lightly changed:

    Austrias_JW have an own "embossed seal decree", they are legally allowed herewith to use an embossed seal on documents and certificates. It has to be used together with blue ink!. Might be that JW dont like online-communcation and Internet so much because it is not secure for their communcation in Austria or that JW would like to introduce the monarchial constitutional hierarchy again ;_)

    https://www.jehovas-zeugen.at/uploads/media/Siegelordnung.pdf

    It seems the Austrian law of JW is a mastermind for the worldwide organisation.

    You have to consider that Gerrit Loesch is not only GB member and head of legal affairs of JW ("LAWS!! and "denying Watchtower reader" who does not report to it but sits with the Watchtowerpresident in the coffeehouse having a white cofffee is himself an Austrian and he 100%certainly very well knows the Austrian constitutional rights of JW and studies them as much as the Watchtower what he denies.

    Therefore you should also know the Austrian constituion of JW as much and as good as he himself knowns it. He is the chief of the troop. Imagine how they drink in Warwick together a coffee, the Austrian GB troop leader, who denies the Watchtower and the top JW lawyer of Warwick, who studied law inadvertantly but with affection to his masters and proposed to Loesh to deny in writing the contact to the watchtower and how they phone to the Austrian laywer and inform about the situation there because it is much better in Austria than with them.

    He has certainly had contact or phoned with the JW-top lawyer who lives in Austria and is well known for being experts in religious minorities and who published official law commentaries. Imagine how the talk about the denying responsibily for the false blood policy. What was the name of this lawyer quickly?

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow
    Wonder: It seems the Austrian law of JW is a mastermind for the worldwide organisation.

    I totally agree, Wonderof You

    I haven't taken the time to read through the links you provided, but I will.

    I had just been thinking about this very thing (except I was thinking more about Germany, forgetting about the Loesch/Austrian connection...but I did have a certain someone in mind that has his base in Austria), speculating on several things that indicate a shift in power base and how European tax laws are influencing many of the changes occurring in the org. (Lol! I was composing a "Slim" speculation response - but was a bit nervous that it would be labelled "conspiracy"...thank you for your post, Wonder)

    This I find interesting:

    Should the case occur that the funds are not sufficient enough to guarantee financiation of the religious society the branch office is allowed to stipulate temporarily or permanently a contribution and ist allowed to determine the regulations for such a contribution.

    Do you remember a couple years ago when the UK branch started transferring large sums of money over to Germany? I wonder if the same thing applies to Germany as it does to Austria and the org had to bail out the German branch because their contributions weren't high enough to "guarantee financiation".

    No wonder the org has been pushing so hard for contributions.

    What was the name of this lawyer quickly?

    Is it The Doctor you are speaking of? Or one of his cronies?

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow

    Just thinking some more about this "guarantee financiation" in Austria.

    That means that the org will be required to show donations/contributions equal to the church tax that would normally be collected on JWs in Austria.

    That would mean that the more wealth in the upper echelons in Austrian JWdom, the more contributions the org would have to show.

    Has the Austrian branch been able to "guarantee" those financiations" from Austrian JWs or did they require a bailout from the Mother Org?

  • TheWonderofYou
    TheWonderofYou

    In 2009 a JW a lawyer for JW Dr Kohldorfer avtive for Austrian JW at the European Court of Human Rights together with other legal officer of jw held a press conference regarding to the official new status.

    ://www.google.at/amp/s/www.ots.at/amp/pr/OTS_20090507_OTS0293/

    This took place in the fomer bethel Vienna 2009 which short *when* soon after the legal upgrading up to a state religion was sadly sold and monex transfered either to selters or new york .

    I wonder how the upgrade had influenced this step. And why. Imagine an little cult upgrades to a state religion 2009/2010 being proudl of having a wonderful bethel in the capital - but short after the cult gets a religion it sells of the headquarter which would be a good prestige for a religion to have and decided now to reside in a little loft in a dirty street. Why? Did the Austrian brothers show humility and when they upgrades they downgraded in Selters spiritually meant?

    At the former bethel addres an company was founded... a project debelopment agency who is since 2010 in liquidatio

    nhttps://www.kompany.at/p/at/364616a


    So short after the waters dried out in Vienna, the bethel habitants were sent home, instead of a bethel the architects who where happy with JW leaving the town planned to build new houses for people then living not with a dream of paradiese but really "stylish" in this world.The former bethel area is now a part of a greater project that includes neighbour property. In a prestige region of the town but with sound prices.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkKfNhtwZoY

  • fastJehu
    fastJehu
    OrphanCrow
    However, whether the org collects that compulsory tax or not, the org, as a "public law" status religion, is now in the position to collect that tax and that means that they have the right to access income tax records of their members.

    I'am a german citizen.

    The church has no possibility, to access the income records of their members.

    Look here:

    https://www.evangelisch-in-westfalen.de/kirche/haeufige-fragen/kirchensteuer/faq-kirchensteuer/#c1931

    "Erfährt die Kirche durch die Kirchensteuer die Höhe meines Einkommens?

    Nein, denn die Finanzämter, die im Auftrag der Kirche die Kirchensteuer mittels Steuerbescheid festsetzen, überweisen die Kirchensteuer monatlich als Gesamtsumme an die steuerberechtigte Kirche. Die Kirchensteuerzahlerinnen und -zahler bleiben damit anonym."

    Translation:

    "Does church tax give the church the amount of my income?

    No, because the tax offices, which determine the church tax by tax assessment on behalf of the church, transfer the church tax monthly as a total amount to the church entitled to tax. The church tax payers thus remain anonymous."

    OrphanCrow
    Legally, the org is in the position to collect tax on any capital gains that its members make.

    Yes, but you can stop this with sending this form (called "Sperrvermerk §51a") to the tax office:

    https://www.formulare-bfinv.de/ffw/form/display.do?%24context=1AAE7BFDAF82DAA2826D

    I have done this in June of 2014 - here a snippet of the answer from the tax office:


    This year I left the JW "church" - not with a letter or a conversation with the elders.

    In Germany you can leave any registered religion (also the JWs) by visiting the Registry office or District Court and paying 30 Euro fee.

    I have done this and have now an official paper, that I left the JW religion.

    So the goverment statistic about how many people leave there church ist now increased by 1 person (me) for the registered JW religion.

    ========================================

    In the year 1999 the german branch printed a large and bulky book about the registration as religion in germany. The books name:

    "Jehovas Zeugen - als Religionsgemeinschaft anerkannt"

    Translation:
    "Jehovah's Witnesses Recognized as a Religious Community"

    LA-3-X (ist the watchtower literature code)



  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Good to have information from someone in Germany,

    While in Germany I saw a poster with a joke possibly aimed at JWs (since they are the main “sect” in public consciousness). It said:

    Warum gehen Ameisen nicht in die Kirche?

    Weil die Insekten sind.

    Which works in English too, except we generally say cult instead of sect.

    Why don’t ants go to church?

    Because they are in sects.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Maybe Watchtower in Germany was told that if they claim the church tax then they needed to provide services of benefit to the public and they decided it wasn’t worth the hassle.

    I’d be curious to know if the New Apostolic Church in Germany collects tax. It would be an indication how far along the sect-church continuum they’ve travelled.

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow
    fastjehu: "Does church tax give the church the amount of my income?
    No, because the tax offices, which determine the church tax by tax assessment on behalf of the church, transfer the church tax monthly as a total amount to the church entitled to tax. The church tax payers thus remain anonymous."

    Thanks for that information, fastjehu. That makes sense. The "church" would have to know how much was "owed" to them in taxes by their parishioners in some way and that would mean that the church would have to submit a membership list so that the tax offices would know who to assess, and this would keep the income of each individual confidential and not accessible to the church.

    Thank you

    In Germany you can leave any registered religion (also the JWs) by visiting the Registry office or District Court and paying 30 Euro fee.
    I have done this and have now an official paper, that I left the JW religion.

    You are likely not alone

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