Question for SwordOfJah and other real JWs

by Realist 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • Gerard
    Gerard
    In a Watchtower article it is written: " The committees of the Governing Body hold weekly meetings to review important matters, make decisions after prayerful considerations, and plan for future theocratic activity." After prayerful considerations, Jehovah does not inspire them to talk. When holy spirit is involved he will bless them on their research but will not give them word-for-word explanations .

    I'm glad you recognize that the GB is not a direct channel to Jehovah God. Anyone who prays will have God's blessings, regardles on your membership to a relatively new organization.

    But tell us, if Jehovah does not provide them with "word-for-word explanations", then the people who have died from lack of tissue transplants and blood tranfusions could have been in vain? Just think about it: How can the WT contrive such an unloving policy, a policy only the WT finds and misrepresents from the Bible?

    Why not let criminal system punish pedophiles instead of sheltering them? I refuse to believe that such inhumane belief is a product of "prayerful considerations". If anything, most of your policies -shunning included - are unconsiderate to the real meaning of Christianity.

    Since you are not directly guided by Jehovah, could the WT's rules and limitations be the product of a faulted human organization derived from from mistaken premises and interpretations? Is not it time to take responsibility for the mistakes from the past and present? Please think about it for a moment.

    Gerry

  • SwordOfJah
    SwordOfJah

    amac: The two examples you use (blood transfussions & associating with disfellowshipped ones) are not suggestions made by the GB. Those doctrines are based on Bible scripture. Whether you accept those scriptures or not is up to you. In those two cases I am not following the GB, but Jehovah God who inspired his word. On the third example, (reading apostate literature) again is not a doctrine or a law. Yes, some elders might be harsh, but again if you're making public this information or it is known that you're trying to create disunity or disorder then of course they will react negatively. If it's your own personal research, as I am doing, and do not involve anyone else in the concentration then there is not harm done to cause disunity.

    detective: I will answer your questions from my perspective.

    >>>does your life have meaning now?

    It sure does. I live to serve Jehovah God and help people acquire the knowledge that will give them everlasting life. That is meaningful.

    >>>Would it have meaning if you stopped going regularly to meetings?

    Eventually it would cause me spiritual harm. I enjoy associating with Jehovah's people. I love all of my brothers and sisters and I recharge my batteries everytime I am present at a meeting.

    >>>Can someone outside the witnesses have a meaningful life?

    Yes, I think many people choose careers such as in the medical field or even volunteer work so they can have a meaninful life.

    >>>Would this statement be equally valid if presented like so: "Now do I get all pissed off because I might not agree with 100% of what the {mormons/scientoloists/catholics teach}?

    The religions you metion do not change their doctrines. Catholics have believe the same thing for centuries even though most of their beliefs are not biblical. One example is the belief of eternal torment in a fiery hell. I have read-up on the beliefs of mormons and scientologists and I do no agree with 85% of their doctrines that's why I have not joined up with those groups.

    >>>What types of things can a person learn about the bible?

    You can learn how to live life to its fullest. Read 2 Tim. 3:16, 17.

    >>>Can you learn alot about the bible by going to the library and reviewing different materials?

    Of course you can. I've had the opportunity to read bible commentaries and compare them to JW beliefs. This is very helpful. For example, using the doctrine of "torment in hell", I have print outs of many commentaries that give the real meaning of "sheol", "hades" and "inferno". I printed out what the Catholic Encyclopedia has on the subject. I carry this information in my book bag so that I can use it in service when discussing this doctrine with a householder.

    >>>Can you learn alot about the bible by comparing different interpretations of passages? Can you learn alot about the bible by reading it yourself?

    Yes and yes. If you are implying that as JWs we don't use that, you wrong. Even our publications encourage us to study the Bible itself. Some members of this forum have suggested that I read the Bible without the help of Watchtower publications. But why should I listen to them, they don't care about my well-being, all they care to see is if another JW will lose faith. I guess they get satisfaction in destroying the faith of a former brother, they don't care if I live or die. My brothers care for me and my well-being. That's why I love them so much. We are united in belief and not attacking one-another. So I choose to study the Bible with the help of the publications. I read the writers reasoning, compare it to the scriptures, meditate on it and then I reach my own conclusions.

    Gerard: You say "Anyone who prays will have God's blessings". Of course, you will agree that he will listen only if the prayer is from the heart and if the person recognizes who he really is.

    >>>then the people who have died from lack of tissue transplants and blood tranfusions could have been in vain?

    I don't believe this to be so. Many died because they had mortal decease. Could have a blood transfusion been able to help them survive another hour, day, week, year? Maybe, but Jehovah promises eternal life. An those dear brothers/sisters of mine that died because of these horrible deceases will have an opportunity to resurrect. Just imagine, the joy of seeing them again. Imagine the joy they will feel to resurrect in a beautiful paradise.

    >>>Why not let criminal system punish pedophiles instead of sheltering them?

    I don't believe the organization shelters pedophiles. It's not like I hide them in the closet while the police is looking for them. That's just an example but it shows that no JW will ever hide the actions of a pedophile. If he is guilty then disfellowship his butt out of the organization and turn him into the police for prosecution. That's what JWs do. Are you satisfied with that? Probably not, most in this forum are not satisfied, they criticize the two-witness rule that is scriptural. Well that's not a problem with the organization, that's a problem with Jehovah's law. I don't mess with that. I follow Jehovah God and as my creator I believe he knows best how to handle situations here on Earth.

    >>>Since you are not directly guided by Jehovah,

    You have incorrectly assumed that as JWs, we are not guided by Jehovah. I did not say that, I said that the GB is not inspired to write as the Bible writers were.

    >>>could the WT's rules and limitations be the product of a faulted human organization derived from from mistaken premises and interpretations?

    I could say that your reasoning is also a product of a faulted human mind and are mistaken about JWs. The thing here is who is doing God's will. You or I. I can only answer for myself, and I believe that as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, preaching the good news of the Kingdom of Christ, I am doing Jehovah's will. All other injustices, I leave up to him.

  • detective
    detective
    >>>Would it have meaning if you stopped going regularly to meetings?

    Eventually it would cause me spiritual harm. I enjoy associating with Jehovah's people. I love all of my brothers and sisters and I recharge my batteries everytime I am present at a meeting.

    I'm sorry, but I'm not sure if you are saying your life would or wouldn't still have meaning even if you didn't go to meetings? I would think that'd be a yes or no answer? Couldn't you just say yes or no, as it would help clarify your position a bit for me.

    I read the writers reasoning, compare it to the scriptures, meditate on it and then I reach my own conclusions.

    Do you ever wonder who wrote those articles? I mean, what the name of the person is who sat down at a desk and wrote the article? Do ever wonder if the person who wrote an article might have written something before on the same subject? Wouldn't you be interested in seeing what other things they have written on? Or, how many ways they might use the same biblical citations to prove a point? Or, alternatively, if the person who wrote an article you have previously meditated upon has since left the organization?

    The religions you metion do not change their doctrines.

    Are you saying that changing doctrines affirms a religions validity?

    Edited by - detective on 13 January 2003 19:32:19

  • amac
    amac

    SOJ,

    Thank you for replying...here is my response:

    Example one: Does the Bible differentiate between Primary and Secondary components in blood? Obviously not. But the GB DOES. If you use Primary, you are disassociated, if you use secondary, you are OK. This is a RULE set by the GB not found in the scriptures. Since it is not found in the scriptures about using components of blood, don't you agree that it should be a conscience matter? And the fact that it isn't a conscience matter shows that the society does set rules outside of Biblical laws. You must follow the rules or get the boot.

    Example two: I am aware of the Bible principles that JWs use to back up DFing. However, there are no scriptures to show that all servants of Jehovah should rely on a group of men to tell them who is eligible for association and who is not. The scriptures portray it as a personal decision, or else they would read something similar to "do not eat or drink with anyone we say not to." Another related question...do you think DFing is used as a form of discipline (if so, is that Christ like?) or a form of cleansing the cong?

    Example Three: If you were to do a WT CD search on apostate literature, do you think you find as laid back of a stance on it as you have? Obviously not, and there are many, many, in fact more than not, elders who will go strictly by the WT and not hesitate to correct you or others and DF you if you are not "repentant." I know someone who was DFed for just that, even though he spoke of his beliefs to no one but his wife who ratted him out.

  • Gerard
    Gerard
    [blood transfussions & associating with disfellowshipped ones] are not suggestions made by the GB. Those doctrines are based on Bible scripture. >>>SwordofJah

    The blood tranfusion policy policiy you say is "Based" on Bible scriptures is not so, it is a distortion of the scriptures taken out of context. I agree a blood transfusion will not cure a lethal condition, but it can certainly save JWs from hypobolemic shock and acute anemia cased from bleeding and other conditions including blood loss from complicated child birth. I repeat my question: Why is it that the WT is the only entity in Christian history that interprets the scriptures as such? You know very well the teaching is in its interpretation. Christian love would not interpret the scriptures in a way to cause death to glorify an organization instead of celebrating and protecting life.

    >>>Can you learn alot about the bible by comparing different interpretations of passages? Can you learn alot about the bible by reading it yourself?

    Yes and yes. If you are implying that as JWs we don't use that, you wrong. Even our publications encourage us to study the Bible itself. Some members of this forum have suggested that I read the Bible without the help of Watchtower publications. But why should I listen to them, they don't care about my well-being, all they care to see is if another JW will lose faith. >>>SwordofJah

    You know you will lose faith in the WT if you read the Bible and see for yourself the context in which key passages were written! Your well being will be OK if you perceive the true meaning of the Bible not the WT's. I do not want you to lose faith in God but open your eyes to the distorted interpretations and rather radical perspectives and bizarre profetic speculations the WT teaches you.

    You say "Anyone who prays will have God's blessings". Of course, you will agree that he will listen only if the prayer is from the heart and if the person recognizes who he really is. >>>SwordofJah

    Then why be part of an organization that pretends that their Bible interpretation is the only valid way to reach salvation and cultivates phobias in their members so not to DA themselves? God's authority and love is bigger than any bible-study organization.

    >>then the people who have died from lack of tissue transplants and blood tranfusions could have been in vain?
    I don't believe this to be so. Many died because they had mortal decease. Could have a blood transfusion been able to help them survive another hour, day, week, year? >>>SwordofJah
    Do I have to review with you the basic ideas of LOVE and HELP? I believe they are at the root of Christianism. Otherwise healthy JWs dying for lack of blood transfusions glorifies an institution, never Jehovah. Think about it. What do you think relatives felt when they let die family and children and he next day the WT anounced that tissue transplants were OK after all!? It happened! And they jut called it "new light".

    >>>Why not let criminal system punish pedophiles instead of sheltering them?

    I don't believe the organization shelters pedophiles. It's not like I hide them in the closet while the police is looking for them. >>>SwordofJah

    No the WT does not hide them in closets. They hide their identities in files. Look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if this is OK.

    Well that's [two witness rule] not a problem with the organization, that's a problem with Jehovah's law. I don't mess with that. I follow Jehovah God and as my creator I believe he knows best how to handle situations here on Earth. >>>SwordofJah

    Sexual predators don't perform in front of two adult witnesses. If you were sexualy abused as a child your opinion would change very-very fast. Believe me.

    The thing here is who is doing God's will. You or I. I can only answer for myself, and I believe that as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, preaching the good news of the Kingdom of Christ, I am doing Jehovah's will. All other injustices, I leave up to him. >>>SwordofJah

    Allow rape, allow family to die without help while not assuming any responsibility for action/omision. Valiant. What a man. What a cult! What a lack of love! What a lack of understanding of the Bible. Maybe if you read it by yourself...the truth will not harm your well being, It will liberate you.

    Gerry

    Edited by - Gerard on 13 January 2003 20:32:50

  • link
    link

    It seems that everyone here wants to discuss things such as the blood doctrine and the two witness rule without realising that these issues, and many like them, are symptoms of the faulty reasoning which SOJ is constantly displaying. We need to look at basic principles because it is these that are wrong and producing the problems that we see.

    He says:

    The two examples you use (blood transfussions & associating with disfellowshipped ones) are not suggestions made by the GB. Those doctrines are based on Bible scripture. Whether you accept those scriptures or not is up to you. In those two cases I am not following the GB, but Jehovah God who inspired his word.

    And

    Probably not, most in this forum are not satisfied, they criticize the two-witness rule that is scriptural. Well that's not a problem with the organization, that's a problem with Jehovah's law.

    This is clearly and completely untrue. SOJ is not following the inspired word of God as he claims, he is following the Societies interpretation of the inspired word of God, which is something entirely different.

    He himself states originally that the organisation does not receive Divine Guidance but:

    Spirit guided would be that Jehovah uses his spirit as a guide but is not telling the person what to write or speak word for word. The person might also ignore that guidance if he is does not have proper motivation or a pure heart. For example, the spirit could guide me to a specific door while I'm in the preaching work, but I could ignore it if I'm tired and just go home.

    In other words it is falliable. (see also)

    You have incorrectly assumed that as JWs, we are not guided by Jehovah. I did not say that, I said that the GB is not inspired to write as the Bible writers were.

    With regard to the following:

    As regard to the visual proof that you ask for, I think you would have to clarify further was you expect Jehovah to show you as proof. Is faith in his inspired word not enough?

    It must be clear to every thinking person, including SOJ, that, as I have pointed out, he is not putting his "faith in His inspired word" but in the word of an organisation that that claims, without any proper or reliable evidence, to be His "sole channel of communication".

    We rely on faith when we believe that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God. We rely totally on the suspension of disbelief when we are asked to put our belief a group of persons who claim to speak on Gods behalf. We have in fact discarded faith at the point where we begin to believe in these man made tales.We are then not using faith at all but are thinking with our disbelief suspended in a major way. Perhaps we could at this point ask a Watchtower type question: Would this be pleasing to God? Please think about this.

    link

  • Realist
    Realist

    SwordOfJah,

    i am still not certain about to what degree the GB respectively the writers of the WT and AWAKE articles are spirit guided.

    is it possible for the writers to state wrong assumptions? can they accidentially write complete nonsense? would God allow such nonsense to be distributed and read by all JWs around the world? Did something like this ever happen in your opinion?

    * If NOT how do you think God prevents such a thing from happening? Does the GB review all articles before they are published?

    * On the other hand, if nonsense was published how do you know what is actually written according to God's will and what is made up by human writers? how can you then follow such an organisation?

    This leads back to the original question of how do you know they are God's organisation?...did they ever publish anything that noone else could have known and that required special insight granted only by God?

    thanks!

    Realist

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit