Watchtower lies through their teeth.

by GeddyLee 40 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  lisaBObeesa

  Have I got this right?

  The JW's couldn't own property if they were a recognised religion, so they pretended to be a social club to own prperties.In oerder to put up the pretense of being a social club they told witnesses in that country not to give public prayer or songs.Then they made out it was because of govermental oppositon that they could not pray etc , when all that had to do was admit they were a religion , give up their real eastate and the brothers would have been "free" to worship their God.

  There fore it was the governing Body who actually banned the witnesses from praying etc,they were the oppostiton and pursecutors.

  Just wanted to make sure this got repeated because this sums it up so perfectly.
• 

  Utopian_Raindrops

  Hey Pretty Plum,

  I can see that on this topic it may be hard to out and out prove that it was a WTBS ban and not a Mexican Government ban.

  Although, once again Id have to say bible should prevail and every Christian in any Religion knows about Daniel and how he was thrown into the lions den for public praying. On top of as JWs we went over and over and over Daniels 3 friends not bowing to an idol set up by government. Why would any Christian bow to Government their right of free worship? For The WTBS all things are for their furtherance and gain not Gods.

  AlenF brought out this scripture a few days ago, Are you defending God by means of lies and dishonest arguments? You should be impartial witnesses, but will you slant your testimony in his favor? Will you argue Gods case for him? Be careful that he doesnt find out what you are doing! Or do you think you can fool him as easily as you fool people? No, you will be in serious trouble with him if even in your hearts you slant your testimony in his favor. Doesnt his majesty strike terror into your heart? Does not your fear of him seize you? Your statements have about as much value as ashes. Your defense is as fragile as a clay pot. (Job 13:7-12; New Living Translation)

  I think this scripture could apply in this case as they were trying to dishonestly present themselves as something they were not in order to worship God. Ether they were a Religion representing the True God or they were a social club. They can only be one and be exceptable to God. To lie or dissemble is not an option for those claiming to Worship in Honesty and Truth.

  These are things JWs I feel would think about if all the facts could be presented in away to OPEN their free thinking abilities and BREAK The WTBS locks and chains.

  As you say a person has to forget their own opinions and read things objectively. People like you teach me everyday.

  This is something I have been learning on this forum. One of the Kudos of coming here.

  LisaBObeesa....Ty for bringing out the main subject and reminding us all what your talking about.

  Agape all,U_R

  Edited by - Utopian_Raindrops on 5 January 2003 3:30:49
• 

  plmkrzy

  For The WTBS all things are for their furtherance and gain not Gods.

  This unfortunately is true and it is something that has always bothered me, not because of the WTS, but because of the faith people I love continue to put in the WTS. All I can do is try and understand "Them" and forget about the WTS.

  Take care
• 

  startingover

  Farkel,

  You are absolutely right, I'm sure there would have been much said if they did have to give up their property. You are also right about the burden of proof. However, in my experience with my family, things don't work that way. They look at something red and tell me it's green. When I tell them to prove that it's green they tell me to prove it's not. After that it's time for them to quit the discussion because "all you want to do is look at the negative". Last time this happened I literally grabbed clumps of my hair and almost pulled them out in frustration.

  At this point, with all the information on this thread, I have enough to completely satisfy me. If and when I find a need to use it it will be there. Thanks Farkel and all others who have contibuted.

  startingover
• 

  Farkel

  startingover,

  : They look at something red and tell me it's green. When I tell them to prove that it's green they tell me to prove it's not. After that it's time for them to quit the discussion because "all you want to do is look at the negative". Last time this happened I literally grabbed clumps of my hair and almost pulled them out in frustration.

  Yes, I know. That's exactly how most JWs react when confronted with pesky facts.

  : They look at something red and tell me it's green. When I tell them to prove that it's green they tell me to prove it's not.

  The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the one making the assertion. One cannot disprove a negative assertion. Here's a good example of what I mean: "An invisible purple unicorn talks in my ear and tells me God's will. Prove me wrong." As you can see, one cannot disprove such statements, not matter how idiotic they are.

  Don't be disappointed if all your efforts in their behalf don't work. They will be ready to honestly examine their religion only when they become ready to honestly examine their religion.

  Farkel
• 

  GeddyLee

  Here is the response I just received from the Mexican consulate. Again the witnesses were never under any ban as we were lead to believe. The witnesses were forbidden to worship properly because the watchtower leadership felt it was more important to retain ownership of their real estate.

  Dear XXXXXXXXXXXX

  Regarding your question:

  Mexican constitution in its chapter 1, guarantees freedom of religion. Indeed, the 24th article of the constitution establishes that all people are free to profess the religious beliefs that her/he likes and practice all ceremonies and cult activities unless these violate the law. The Congress can neither establish nor abolish one religion. The religious acts should be celebrated in temples, otherwise should be under specific rules.

  Mexican government had never banned Jehovahs Witness or any other religion group.

  Hugo Rangel

  Consulate of Mexico

  Hello, I have a very important question that I really hope you can help me with. I am doing personal research on the Jehovahs witness group in Mexico, and I need to know whether the Mexican government ever had a ban on this group from worshiping in Mexico. I used to belong to this religion years ago, and was in Cancun in the early nineties, and went to a Jehovahs witness meeting, and we were told that we couldnt use our bibles, or sing hymns at this gathering because the Mexican government banned their worship. Since I have left this group , I have learned from different sources that the Witnesses were never banned in Mexico, but the leaders of the group said they were in order to keep their real estate they had there. I believe I was lied to by the witnesses, and would very much appreciate an answer to my question, as it would be a huge assistance to me. Thankyou in advance for your help with this matter, xxxxxxxxxx

  Edited by - geddylee on 6 January 2003 15:30:16
• 

  plmkrzy

  and church ministers had to be Mexican nationals .
• 

  AlanF

  Plmkrzy posted:

  : and church ministers had to be Mexican nationals

  What's your point?

  AlanF
• 

  plmkrzy

  LOL! hahahaha.

  What does that sentance mean?
• 

  JWdaughter

  HI, I know this is an old thread, but I have been resarching this topic again lately. I had seen some really great information on the subject from sources that were neutral, and can't find it anymore. It was just about the change of the church situation in Mexico. In the late 80's there were changes in the govt that led to the 'ultimate' removal of the issues with churches owning property in Mexico. There was never any religious ban, the issue was purely regarding the ownership of the property.

  The impression the WT was trying to imply, without out and out SAYING IT, was that 'even if they had to give up the properties, they were willing to do whatever it took so that they could worship openly'. I think they phrased that VERY carefully. JWs would latch onto it positively and ignore the fact that they never claimed to actually LOSE their property rights. In fact, at the time they had their discussions with the govt. officials, the tide was turning towards more religious freedom. I think that they were tolerated and understood to be a religion in the country in spite of their sneakiness. Why was there suddenly govt. discussions? I believe it was part of the transition that the govt was making and they instigated them NOT to be punitive, but to make them aware of how things would change-so either they were told they could change without negative $ repurcussions or they were simply discussing with a fairly major 'minor' religion in the country as to how to make the changes in a way that would not disrupt the country adversely. The rules they had in the first place were because "The Church" had gotten too much power in the country and they were wary of it.

  In any case, every JW I read of that commented on this on any forum or informational source always, without a doubt, justified it. They said "Oh, the reason why they couldn't be a 'church' was that the state could take over their buildings and house soldiers in them if they wanted to.' Even in the US the govt. has a right to do so, so that is a really lame argument. The WT goes on and on about how "We're Jehovah's Witnesses, we speak out in fearlessness, ours is the God of true prophecy, what he proclaims comes to be" Ok, I could pick on those lyrics for myriad reasons, but in Mexico, they could not even claim to BE Jehovah's Witnesses or pray in their own buildings-NOT because of a govt. ban but because the WTS was not willing to give up property rights. I think it stinks, and they should be ashamed for their dissembling.