Only in email.... no biggy. I got 10x that in nice ones.
Animal
Judging
by Marcos 16 Replies latest jw friends
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Marcos
Xena,
To me being judgemental is to judge another as being worthy or unworthy
My point also. I think those things are not in our purvue. My understanding is that that is precisely what Jesus was saying. This because he also talks about judging in several other instances in a positive way.
I think we have to be reasonable in all things and not be swayed by popular opinion unless we have really examined the thinking behind the opinion to see if it is sound.
Marcos
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Xena
I agree Marcos (even though it tends to shorten the discussion )
As a side point, I find it almost amusing how people sometimes presume to judge others based on things they have no knowledge of. Case in point, my sister recently berating me about my relationship with God and judging me as being unworthy of his grace. How can anyone be aware of my personal relationship with God, except God and myself? How can anyone else besides God judge me as being worthy or unworthy of his attention?
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rebel
Xena,
I agree with you so much.
How can anyone judge someone else unless they have been in their shoes?
Unfortunately, the world is full of people who just love to judge. They forget what they have done in the past and love to pick at others. They love to be called Christians but seem to forget what Jesus said about judging others - to paraphrase "If you do not forgive others, God will not forgive you." In other words, do not judge people, because you have done a lot worse!!!
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Marcos
Hi Rebel.
Still, my point is that we must judge. Let me give an example of how I believe we all judge. I admit going in that it is a little extreme and it is not in the spirit of getting my own way. I simply think that many have taken a part of what Jesus said and often bent it to fit the modern philosophy of whatever you or I do is ok lets not be judgmental.
Perhaps we are all in agreement that Hitler went way overboard (as did Stalin and many other world leaders).
The background is this: where I live we have a real problem with illegal aliens crossing the border and putting a strain on our resources. Many of them are really needy and cant live in their own country. An attendant problem is the importation of two gangs from El Salvador, the Salvatruchas (this is a slightly pejorative term for people from El Salvador much like the term Cachuco is used for Guatemalans). They have divided my city into two camps. One group is called the 13 and the other is called the 18.
The leaders are not Mexican. They are Salvadorian.
These guys absolutely terrorize school kids (beatings, knifings and outright killings) as well as people who live in some of the barrios (neighborhoods) here.
My son, who is now 19 and just graduated high school, was just talking to me the other day. He is a very well balanced and nice kid. He doesnt fight and believes in law and order. His idea was this: I would love to get together a band of guys to start sort of a counter gang. What we would do is this; patrol the city and catch gang members, beat them up and dump them across the border with a warning never to come back. I told him that the majority are now Mexicans. He said that it didnt matter, now they have betrayed Mexico by breaking the law and living by the rule of the Salvatruchas. They are now Salvadorenos, not Mexicans.
I told him that this is a very bad idea and violates not only Mexican law but also international law. I judged that this would be a bad thing for a young Christian to be involved in.
I also judge that some people he associated with were bad associates. However, I also give him room to make his own decisions. His response to me when I asked him if I had ever given him bad advice was, No, EVERYTHING you have ever told me has been correct. You are almost always right.
No sarcasm intended here but, do you think I should let him walk in the other guys shoes to see if they have a valid viewpoint? Or is it my duty as his father to point out bad associates and the consequences of evil actions?
In addition to the quote at Matthew 7:1 5, Jesus also said:
first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye" in verse 5.
"Beware of false prophets!" (Matthew 7:15) is the warning and command of our Lord. But how could we "beware" and how could we know they are "false prophets" if we did not judge? And what is the God given standard by which we are to judge? " To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20). "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16), Christ said. And in judging the "fruits," we must judge by God's Word, not by what appeals to human reasoning. Many things seem good to human judgment which are false to the Word of God. http://www.surefoundation.org/JudgeNot.htm
We are also told to judge or discern according to the fruits of the one being judged. Have we not also judged that the fruits of the WTS are bad?
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:16-20).
These particular scriptures (and there are more) are in the words of Jesus. My contention is that we ARE to judge but to be careful that we are not guilty of the same failures (i.e. removing the rafter from our own eye).
I do not advocate being hypercritical of people. If we believe someone is wrong, it is best to talk to them privately. That is, if that one is a believer. Also, I think that if we have any leverage with someone like a friend or an acquaintance (for instance here on this site) we should, and do, offer criticisms of their reasoning. But we must tread lightly so as to give that person leeway to make their own decision as to whether what we say is right of wrong.
Empathy also is extremely important. You are very correct in stating that we dont have any idea what the other person may have experienced in their lives. But, that goes both ways.
This post has gone way beyond what I had intended. But I do want to say that I appreciate your comments. I just dont like it when people use a part of what Jesus taught without regard for the entire message. We avoid the use of judging simply because it is a trigger word for so many people who dont even believe in Jesus. We are not only victims of the WT, we are also victims of popular culture.
Thanks again for your comments.
Marcos
P.S. I found more information on the word krinos. It can be found here: http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/judging/
These are sites I have found in searches on Google and I cant say that I agree 100% with everything on these sites. I just found them interesting.
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Country Girl
We all judge things for ourselves every day. We judge the distance to the next corner, we judge amounts of time.. things like that.
All of us judge behaviors, words (written or spoken) and react in various ways. I believe it is when we CONDEMN others for their behaviors, opinions, attributes, whatever, that it becomes something that is non-loving and breeds hostility. We can judge, yes, but I think it's not our right to penalize or condemn.
Just my $.02.
Country Girl
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Marcos
Right on, Countrygirl!
Just the kind of down-home, horse sense I would expect! Seriously, I appreciate the comment.
I agree and that is what I am getting at. Condemning someone is a problem. We really dont know enough about most individuals to condemn them.
But. Are there not things or people you would condemn? Or would you condemn certain acts?
Thanks for your comments.
Marcos