"Mediator" not Mediator, "Judge" not Judge... Watchtower word games

by ILoveTTATT2 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • ILoveTTATT2

    As much as Jesus is not the Mediator of mankind but the "Mediator" (supposedly a legal term), the Watchtower has a similar word game with the word "judge".

    Seems like Deborah judged in Israel, which, for every one of you apostate or worldly scumbags who don't understand word games, does not mean Debora was a judge. You see, Deborah was a "judge".

    Why is that? Because she is not listed on a list of 12 judges. So there you go, because of our amazing Biblical understanding, we know that Deborah, even though she judged in Israel, was not a judge. She was a "judge".

    Therefore, Mr. Jackson is right in saying that all judges in the Bible were men. Cause... when the Bible is clear, we have to make the Bible ambiguous. We have to make a word not really mean what it means.

    Kinda like in the novel 1984. No, wait. EXACTLY like in 1984.

    *** it-2 p. 134 Judge ***


    Men raised up by Jehovah to deliver his people prior to the period of Israel’s human kings were known as judges. (Jg 2:16) Moses, as mediator of the Law covenant and God-appointed leader, judged Israel for 40 years. But the period of Judges, as usually viewed, began with Othniel, sometime after the death of Joshua, and extended until Samuel the prophet. Samuel is not usually counted among the Judges. So the period of the Judges extended about 300 years.—Jg 2:16; Ac 13:20.

    The judges were selected and appointed by Jehovah from various tribes of Israel. Between Joshua and Samuel, 12 judges (not including Deborah) are named, as follows

    *** it-2 p. 135 Judges, Book of ***

    The section running from chapter 3, verse 7, to the end of chapter 16 is, basically, in chronological order and relates the activities of 12 judges (not including Deborah), starting with Othniel and concluding with Samson.

    *** it-2 p. 135 Judges, Book of ***

    Barak, encouraged by the prophetess Deborah

    *** it-1 p. 296 Bethel ***

    During the period of the Judges, the dwelling place of Deborah the prophetess

    *** it-1 p. 754 Ephraim ***

    Later, Benjamite Judge Ehud assembled the Israelites in the mountainous region of Ephraim to fight against the Moabites. (Jg 3:26-30) After Ehud’s death the prophetess Deborah, from her residence in the mountainous region of Ephraim, sent for Barak as the one designated by Jehovah to deliver Israel from the oppression of King Jabin. In the victory song of Barak and Deborah, Ephraim is the first tribe to be mentioned.

    *** it-2 p. 698 Prophetess ***

    In the period of the Judges, Deborah served as a source of information from Jehovah, making known his judgments on certain matters and conveying his instruction, as in his commands to Barak.

    *** w80 11/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***Questions From Readers● In view of Judges 4:4, can Deborah be viewed as one of the judges of ancient Israel, along with Samson, Gideon and others?The Bible account at Judges 4:4 reads: “Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that particular time.” Earlier, the account at Judges 2:16 says: “Jehovah would raise up judges, and they would save them out of the hand of their pillagers.” Thus the main work of a judge would be to save Israel from their enemies. It appears, then, that the phrase at Judges 4:4 about Deborah “judging Israel at that particular time” does not mean that Deborah was usurping the place of a man and that she was fulfilling all the duties of a judge in Israel. Unlike Samuel, Gideon or other judges she did not judge all Israel and act as their deliverer or “savior.” In fact, at Nehemiah 9:27 the term “saviors” is used rather than “judges.”—Compare Judges 3:9, 15.Being a prophetess, Deborah told Barak what Jehovah’s will was in the matter. She was used by Jehovah to call Barak to serve as judge for the overthrow of the enemy. Barak served as the “savior” provided by Jehovah, not Deborah, although Barak asked that Deborah go with him. So it is most unlikely that Deborah performed all the duties usually associated with the office of a judge in Israel, the most prominent of which was leading the tribes in warfare against Jehovah’s enemies.Thus, while Deborah can properly be described as a prophetess, it is only in a general sense that she was doing a measure of judging in Israel; she was not taking the full place of a male judge in Israel. Judges 4:5 says: “She was dwelling under Deborah’s palm tree between Ramah and Bethel in the mountainous region of Ephraim; and the sons of Israel would go up to her for judgment.” As for the matter of giving the Israelites Jehovah’s answer to difficult problems that would come up, this she could do because of Jehovah’s spirit being upon her.In contrast, Barak certainly was one who effected deliverance for the Israelites. The reasonable conclusion to draw is that Barak was a judge in the full sense of the word, and this is in accord with Hebrews 11:32, where he ranks among the judges of ancient Israel. Thus the book Aid to Bible Understanding, on page 980, in listing the judges of Israel, does not include Deborah.

  • disposable hero of hypocrisy
    disposable hero of hypocrisy

    Interesting, thanks for posting. It's funny now to see how they weasel around the issue. A few years ago I would've lapped this up and marvelled at their insight. D'oh!

    Anybody know if this particular view of Deborah is held by the churches of Christendom as well?

  • ILoveTTATT2


    It depends on the individuals interpreting the Bible.

    Some, such as these below, say that Deborah was not a judge in the sense that the males were. Their lines of reasoning (and Watchtower's too) are based on two things:

    1) Deborah did not save Israel directly, unlike the males.

    2) Deborah is not listed in Hebrews 11:32, instead, Barak is mentioned.



    This one gives other reasons, including that the OT should not govern the NT:


    Most sources admit she was a judge:


    This source counteracts the objections of the ones who say she was not a judge:


    This one defends Deborah as a full judge:


    It seems that the acceptance of Deborah as a judge is inversely proportional to your chauvinism/misogyny.

    But in relation to what is important to the Royal Comission, Deborah JUDGED in Israel. She made judgement calls, whether an Israelite had to be punished or not... She just wasn't a warrior.

  • blondie

    How was it that Deborah was sought out as a "judge" but not her husband (she was married you know) her scriptural head?

    Barak would not go without Deborah, so the victory was really hers or more exactly a woman's named Jael.

    (Judges 4:8-10) 8 At this Barak said to her: “If you will go with me, I also shall certainly go; but if you will not go with me, I shall not go.” 9 To this she said: “Without fail I shall go with you. Just the same, the beautifying thing will not become yours on the way that you are going, for it will be into the hand of a woman that Jehovah will sell Sise·ra.” With that Debo·rah got up and went with Barak to Kedesh. 10 And Barak began to call Zebu·lun and Naphta·li together to Kedesh, and ten thousand men went on up following his steps; and Debo·rah went on up with him.

    Huldah was a prophet chosen out of many other prophets of her time.

    *** w02 12/15 p. 22 Are You Acquainted With Shaphan and His Family? ***Huldah—An Influential Prophetess

    Upon hearing the reading of “the very book of the law” found in the temple, King Josiah ordered Shaphan and four other high-ranking officials to “inquire of Jehovah” about the book. (2 Kings 22:8-20) Where could the delegation find the answer? Jeremiah and possibly Nahum and Zephaniah, all prophets and Bible writers, lived in Judah at the time. The delegation, however, approached Huldah the prophetess.

    The book Jerusalem—An Archaeological Biography comments: “The remarkable thing about this episode is that the male-female aspect of the story was completely unremarked. No one considered it the least bit inappropriate that an all-male committee took the Scroll of the Law to a woman to determine its status. When she declared it the word of the Lord, no one questioned her authority to determine the issue. This episode is often overlooked by scholars assessing the role of women in ancient Israel.” Of course, the message received was from Jehovah.

  • ILoveTTATT2

    NICE quote Blondie!

    They really ignore what they want and use what they want to make their "case".

    Misogyny has been a staple of the Watchtower since its beginning.

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth
    Debʹo·rah is a prophetess. Jehovah gives her information about the future, and then she tells the people what Jehovah says. Debʹo·rah is also a judge. She sits under a certain palm tree in the hill country, and people come to her to get help with their problems.


  • defender of truth
    defender of truth
    ^^ I sent the above quote to the Royal Commission. Maybe they can use it in the future ;)
  • JustVisting
    Deborah was a mediator Judge.
  • Splash

    There were 12 judges in Israel, and Heb 11:32 only mentions four of these.
    In mentioning these four, Heb 11:32 adds Samuel and David to the list, "and the [other] prophets".

    Heb 11:32 is not a list of judges, it is a sample list of faithful men who, if you continue to read verses 33 and 34 "who through faith..." demonstrated many achievements.

    To say that Deborah cannot be classed as a judge because of Heb 11:32 is to misunderstand what Heb 11:32 is saying, and might as well be used to argue that there were actually only four judges.

    The scriptures are clear, Deborah is called a judge more than once and Barak is never given that title.

    The WT do not follow the Bible but interpret according to their own whim and tradition. This is just one more example of a corrupt teaching where they claim to know better than the Word of God.

    *** w77 12/1 p. 723 par. 24 Is Your Advice Hard to Take? ***
    "We should never twist texts to serve our own purpose, as Satan did."

  • sir82
    Another one: "lying" is not lying if the person you are speaking to "is not entitled to the truth".

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