Bethelites are Jerks! Your Comments?

by Marcos 12 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Marcos
    Marcos

    Bethelites are Jerks! Your Comments?

    I've posted here a few times but, as you can see by my profile (at left) I am a newbie.

    I have mentioned in speaking to a few of the other posters here that I was in Bethel in the late '60s and early 70's.

    In my time there, the majority of us were just kids. I entered when I was just 17 or so. Bethel "service" was presented to me as "the closest thing on earth to going to Heaven." We had to pioneer first. I was so happy to get out of pioneering that going to Bethel did, indeed, seem like being invited to Heaven. I was very young, very impressionable, and figured that getting out of pioneering and out of the local congregation was so cool.

    I was so impressed with going to Bethel and the implications of doing "God's Work" that I didn't even take a radio with me. I was leaving the world behind. I was associated with 2 congregations. My parent's cong. (they were English speakers), and my cong., which was Spanish speaking. Long story short, I was raised Hispanic because of where I lived. My associates were almost all Mexican-American and I was pretty much thoroughly assimilated into the culture of my barrio. Plus, my background is partially Latino (Irish, French, and Spanish).

    Anyway, the emphasis placed on Bethel service was such that going to Bethel really made one a "marketable" commodity. One of the sisters in my parent's cong. tried for years entice me into contracting to marry her daughter (who at the time was 11 or 12 years old). She was deadly serious. This girl was in no way attractive either physically or personality-wise. She looked like an old illustration in the "Babylon" book of a sheep that had sort of a beak like a vulture and (she) had the personality of her mother -- yuck!

    I knew I had made a mistake in going to Bethel within the first 2 weeks of arriving. I was treated badly from the first day I arrived. The "spiritual" brothers already there were sullen and mean. But, I had always been raised to finish what I began. So I stuck out my 4 years. My career there was less than sterling but I was hardheaded about living up to my word.

    My years there were miserable. I really hated every minute of the time I spent in Bethel and New York did not thrill me. I had to be there but was not allowed to enjoy any of the good things the city offered. Later, toward the end of my stay there, I did go out whenever I could and would drink and carouse with (most) of the other young "brothers". Other than the drinking, I did try to be a "good boy". I found out later that some, if not many of my peers were not only drinking but also fornicating and using drugs. I did not. In my twisted reasoning, I drew certain lines.

    Moreover, drinking was an institutionalized activity. EVERYONE did it. I was called into Max Larson's office (the factory overseer at the time) after being caught drunk by another "brother" one time. He asked me how much I drank. I told him "about 2 quarts of beer a night like all of the other Bethelites my age." He called me a liar. I wasn't lying.

    The pressures they put on us were tremendous. We had to listen to Knorr ramble on for sometimes 2 hours before we could eat breakfast. We had to work until late in the afternoons. We had to attend congregations that were sometimes almost an hour away from Bethel. Then return (often through dangerous neighborhoods) and try to get enough sleep to get up and do it all again.

    It was quite a load for a kid. We were treated by the overseers like scum unless we were from a "good" family (translate: a family with money that contributed heavily to the Society). I saw various exceptions made for guys with the "right" connections.

    The servants in the congregations we attended expected us to be spiritual giants. We weren't.

    On top of all that, we had to attend the English only congregation in Bethel for, I believe, the first 6 months. It was a little difficult for those of us who had received all of our training in another language. At the end of the 6 months we were usually shipped out to other New York City congs. Fortunately (?) I was transferred to a local Spanish language cong. in Brooklyn.

    There, I met a girl. A lovely young thing from Puerto Rico. We hit it off. But, I was determined to be "theocratic" and maintain my integrity until I finished my Bethel service as I had been instructed (brow-beaten). So, I spent time with her (innocent and clean) and planned on asking her to marry me toward the end of my Bethel service. But, I didn't say anything to her. Didn't want to get drug out of my Bethel service early!

    Well, they assigned another "brother" to my cong. from Bethel. I was told to take him and to make him feel welcome. I did mention that no one had done this for me. That was of course a mark against me.

    He was a short, fat, nerdy kid from Cuba. My girlfriend's sister asked me once if he was gay. I said "Of course not! He is in Bethel!" What an idiot (me). After a couple of months he said that since I was doing nothing about my girlfriend did I care if he made a play for her? I looked at him, smiled and said, "Who cares?"

    I mean, his appearance and lack of any personality were to me pathetic. I was over-confident. In 2 months they announced their engagement. The little jerk left Bethel early to marry her. And here I was trying to do the right thing. Remember, I was young and had no experience.

    I got along very well with the family of my girlfriend. So, just before the wedding, I asked her mom, "what just happened?" Know what she told me? She said that my girlfriend still loved me but that she didn't feel like she was good enough for me.

    There are so many things I would do differently. But, looking at it in context, I was really naive.

    The Bethelites are just people. There are good ones and bad ones. The rank and file witnesses put so much value (or did) on them that they can't possibly live up to everyone's expectations.

    A lot of them were players. But I suspect that the "players" were players before they arrived in Bethel.

    Bethelites are really not special. A lot of them are jerks. A lot of them are nice people. However, we have to view things in context. They are at least as mislead as the average JW. And, I know that many drop out during or after their Bethel time. It is hard to see the bs up front and personal and not get a clue.

    The biggest complaint seems to be the lack of love shown at the headquarters. If it is not there, how can it exist in the congs?

    Speaking of love and money, they say that they are the cleanest organization on earth. Well, it's all hype. Just one example. I always had a hard time understanding the Leo Greenlees thing. I asked myself how is it that someone so obviously gay could be in Bethel, let alone have a (from my perspective) high position in the Service Dept. I also wondered how was it that when once Fred Franz invited me up to his room for a glass of wine, his roommate (or nurse) went into such a tizzy? The guy was just a little (a lot) prissy and wanted me OUT and FAST!

    Well, when I was wrapping up my "career" there there was this guy who lived in Brooklyn Heights (the neighborhood where Bethel is located). He was wildly gay. Brooklyn Heights was at that time sort of a mecca for gays. He used to have groups of young male Bethelites over to his apartment for parties (booze, and who knows what else?) I met him once at a Bethelite party in Bethel. Anyway, when I returned to Bethel in 1973 to "spring" my best friend from there, I found out that this guy was not only still around but also that he was now a Bethelite himself!

    Remember the ambiance here. This is Jehovah's "clean organization" and homosexuality is a big no-no. But, here he was, fat happy and in beehive of young men. Another thing that sort of makes you go hmmm.

    This was, strangely, during a period of another witch-hunt by Knorr and Co. for homosexuals. For at least a 2 or 3-year period, they were searching out and expelling anyone they could for being gay. Some, justifiably so, others just out of spite.

    To sum up, BROTHERRRS (poking a little fun at Freddy (Franz)), this has been a long post. I don't know if there is a lot of interest in the day-to-day of being a Bethelite. If there is, I will try to post a few more experiences. I would love to hear form other ex-bethelites on what their lives were like. I would be thrilled to know what those of you who were not Bethelites think. How did you/do you perceive these "spiritual paragons" in Bethel?

    Marcos

  • Gary1914
    Gary1914

    Thanks for giving us your insight on Bethel life, Marcos. I enjoyed reading it very much.

    When I was an active Dub I always felt that Bethelites were the paragon of virtue. Not only that, they always got the goodlooking sisters. lol I look forward to hearing more of your experiences.

    Edited by - Gary1914 on 13 December 2002 14:51:21

  • Quotes
    Quotes

    Marcos, I enjoyed your post. Please post more.

    I was never in Bethel (thank goodness) so I always had the Rank & File perspective that Bethel, and Bethelites, could do no wrong and that only the most "clean", most "spiritual" brothers were there and that any wrongdoing, if/when it rarely happened, was immediately uncovered (since Jahoobee keeps his house clean) and corrected/removed.

    Reading stories like yours, and learning that a sizable percentage were "less clean" than I was when I was a young man, really is an eye-opener. I think this is an important part of deconstructing the myth that the bOrg portrays.

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Marcos,

    Thanks for the behind-the-scenes look at the WTS headquarters! I had heard some of these things before, but you really tied it together quite well.

    I never was a Bethelite, but I took the tour 3 times over the years. They really put on a show about being God-directed and clean and all that. But of course we know it's all a lot of show.

    I hope you fill us in with more posts later!

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    I couldn't generalize to the extent to say they are all "jerks" because there were some good people I knew. But I've never been a fan of Bethelites personally.

    At worst they were jerks and at best they were so out of touch with reality and plastic and artificial. I was fortunate to live in an area where we knew full well what Bethelites were like and never bought into the myths and so it was quite fashionable in certain circles to be critical of them.

    I can't see how such an environment wouldn't mess people up, where you were always on display and could never really let your hair down. Many bethelites I knew were deathly afraid of the possibility of having to live in the real world and the longer they were at bethel the more afraid they became. I could never trust them since they were all bought men and how many men do u know that will bite the hand that feeds them, even if it is a matter of principle?

    Path

  • JT
    JT

    O yes the bethelites who were Jerks, well being a former bethelite who came in years after you , I bow before you because you guys caught it,

    I recall talking to guys just like you who were there during the days of "KNORR" I HAVE THE UPMOST RESPECT FOR YOU GUYS

    THE accounts I have heard of how he treated you guys is unreal, it is about as far from jesus as you can get- The guys i hated were the RICKY RIGHTEOUS" guys

    htere were these 2 dudes who used to walk around with either a bound volume or the blue AID BOOK under their arms, they would come down to the table with the Aid Book and ask folks questions- here we were talking about this hot little pioneer sister we saw come thru on the tour route and one of those clowns would be like -

    "Does Anyone know the all the names of the Judges of Isreal?"

    and everyone would like ROLLED THIER EYES IN DISGUST of course the older bethel heavies were impressed at such a young man who was serious- in fact one of these clowns is inthe Service dept and the other works with Convention Organization- today up in patterson

    but here is a REPOST OF something the guys from your day knew better than i did

    G-Jobbing

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=7081&site=3

    What is G-JOBBING___

    It is called Government work- it refers to GOV employees being lazy and just getting a check

    well it has to do with bethelites being too lazy to go out and get a real job so we do side jobs to make money while at bethel

    and you can make alot if you are in the right "Trade" electrician, plumber, tile setter, roofer, etc and it is all tax free

    the Congo in NYC would pay you to work on their halls since most jw in NY are white collar and not tradesmen

    we even did work for NONJW- using WT tools , supplies and Trucks and since it was always at COST it was cheap --can you imagine what it would cost to rent a FLATBED truck in NYC to hall Dry wall 2 blocks- smile

    all you needed to do was to get the guys who worked in that dept to requisition it under their name- they didn't even need to be there , but they would get their cut- lot of Elders headed up these work teams

    so we would use the buying power of the Society to get these supplies for halls and bro in there home many times

    some guys were clearing $3,000 a month tax free- bethel has cracked down on it by requiring you to sign a VOW OF POVERTY which is a form from the IRS saying you will not do any side jobs-

    also the waiters did lots of G-JOBBING if anyone has been to bethel for lunch they are always impressed with how over 6000, folks can be served in less than 20min- well this is were the waiters come in at

    folk like to use the bethelites at thier weddings to serve their guest
    and if you are talking references just watch the mothers and fathers who have daugthers getting married in a few weeks come up to you afterward and ask you to do thier kids wedding

    so the money rolls in beside everyone figures who BETTER TO HELP THAN THE LOWLY BETHELITES

    smile

    the BREAKER was some guys did a job and the person filed for it on his taxes --of course the IRS wants to know who do we get our money from

    well I'd be Damn-- if it ain't some guys who is suppose to be living off $90.00 a month smile

    so the society got involved and shut down most of the best money making jobs-

    from what I understand you can still do it but you have to go through a lot of hoops

    so many guys were missing meetings on the weekend and wiped out on Monday that flags started going up- we had this old nurse Called Sophie ---

    -all my god she would worry you to death if you called in sick on a MONDAY were you out late Sunday night- what time did you get in, etc

    old bag man

    we had a plumbing job that was bidded out by a Congo in Queens with UNION NYC plumbers that was for $32,000, $36,000 and there was another bid price

    so the elders asked the bethelites could we do it- it was a complete job from the street to the inside of the hall to toilets and sinks and tile job

    well we could not ask for a set price but only tell the elders

    WHATEVER YOU BROTHERS WANTED TO GIVE US

    well they presented it to the Congo and they came back with $25,000 offer and it would be just 5 of us and they would supply all the manual labor through the local bros.

    we are talking $5,000 a piece - no taxes

    in a weekend baby with a few follow up days to clean up any leftovers

    one of the guys was a MASTER PLUMBER SO HE always got the permits we needed from the city- due to the large amount we got cold feet so we talked with Ralph Walls about it and he told us we needed to consider how would it look with that sum of cash in 2days of work- where in fact it would have been no work at all since we would have merely been overseeing the local guys doing all the digging of the trenches SMILE HEY YOU GOT TO LOVE IT MAN

    so we turned it down- DAMN I SHOULD HAVE DONE IT

    there is one guy and some of the bethelites on the net know this guy he ran the ROOFING DEPT as the overseer and was (REMOVED FROM THAT JOB FOR THIS REASON) and since all the roofs in NYC on the halls are flat--they are always leaking due to water standing on them

    well he would take SOME OF his crew and knock out a roof over a weekend and man he was clocking over 3K amonth, not bad considering you don't have any expenses

    but the most famous G -JOBBER OF ALL TIME WAS a bro from out of Texas if I'm correct- any bethelites here will correct me if I'm wrong on the state he is from

    any way his name was James (JIM) Spencer he was the photography overseer and he had access to the society's $Million dollar cameras and film and processing equipment and he used to shoot WEDDINGS ON THE WEEKEND- hey like I said YOU GOT TO LOVE IT

    NOW CK THIS OUT

    I had a buddy who was in on the deal-- he worked at the Stanley theater- that is the most expensive assembly hall in the wt arsenal of assembly hall probably

    you all know it --the million dollar chandelier- anyway one of my boys was assigned as a keeper when they used bethelites---- now they have a pioneer couple over there --old Ricketts and he is a LITTLE HUSTLER as well

    anyway Jim would arrange to use the assembly hall to take couples pictures

    and I tell you-- to have your wife coming down the GRAND STAIRCASE IN HER GOWN hey man we are talking GONE WITH THE WIND TYPE STUFF

    well my boy could have folks over to the assembly hall after hours as long as they were his guests

    man he didn't even know some of the couples

    so Spencer would kick him a little "SOMETHING -SOMETHING" SMILE

    anyway old Spencer got caught not reimbursing the Society for the equipment and since he was the Overseer of the dept no one really questioned what he was working on late at night

    hey it was not your latest mag cover shot- smile

    so the "Shit hit the fan" and my man was BUSTED DOWN FROM PHOTO OVERSEER

    to working the Bindery lines in the leather gold bible section

    it was so embarrassing cause about a month after he got SHAFTED we had an Open tour of the factory were the office guys and the home guys could come over to the factory and see how the book and mags are made

    and you guessed it ---my man James Spencer is right on the tour route and all the office guys are walking through laughing their a$$ off at him sitting there sweating with a tee shirt and blue jeans on.

    his roommate was Robbie Vela from Hawaii the big island ---he worked upstairs in the bindery on the hardback line and he told us that Spencer would come home from work when he worked in photo dept and there would be TICKETS FOR him to fly to Japan or Rome or anywhere in the world just to take a couple of rolls of film and fly back

    man we are talking about living the good life- he flew almost as much as the guys with UPI or AP wire guys

    single man living the life and since he was the PO in his hall up in the Bronx he had the best of both worlds in the local hall and at the big house

    from what I understand HE MADE A KILLING

    well it is now bed time and no more bethel stories until later

    smile

    James

    PS this is the last one it's too good to let pass

    now i earned my money when i was at bethel others don't

    as you all know by now the spokesman for the wt is a guy named JR Brown as a black man we use to call the the Society's Louis Farrakan

    the most powerful speaker every to Grace a wt mike esp in the black community

    well anyway he is ACES with larry Graham and larry is always hooking him up along with 1000's of his fans

    anyway when he bought his new car alot of the Heavies and i don't mean to get racial,but some of the White boys were not happy

    As they would say in the black Hood ""This Negro went out and bought a $45,000 car"

    my man drives a top of the line fully loaded "Q45"
    now go figure how you and i can do that off $90.00 a month

    YOU TO TO LOVE IT

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Marco,

    Your story resonates with me, as I was there from 1965 to 1969. Generalizations may be unfair, but it's beyond debate that the local JWs -- and even Circuit and District Overseers are quite naive when it comes to their perceptions of Bethelites and the daily living/working environment. A lot of them are indeed jerks and just plain mean-spirited, but it's also true that some of the finest people I've ever met were there.

    It didn't take long to learn that the notion of a Governing Body or the collaborative leadership of the anointed class was a myth. Plain and simple, Knorr ran the place and Freddie dreamed up the doctrines, period. Local JWs were regarded by most Bethelites with a mixture of bemusement and condescension.

    Many, if not most Bethelites often invoked ``Bethel work" and ``Bethel responsibilities'' as license to miss as many meetings at their assigned Kingdom Halls as they could get away with, and did so with impunity as no Circuit Overseer would dare take them to task for this. Those with the biggest jobs seemed to be teh most egregious slackers when it came to making meetings and going out in field service.

    The prevalent attitude seemed to be that the material printed in the Kingdom Ministry and the magazines was mostly for public consumption, and that any new boy who came in with attitiudes shaped by having taken such counsel literally and seriously was an ``SR" (Self Righteous) and would soon undergo initiation into ``reality."

    Homesick boys, horny and desperate to get out, often siezed the first opportunity to latch onto and exploit naive local girls and their compliant, worshipful parents and grotesquely incompatible, too often desparately unhappy marriages resulted.

    I wondered what one of my first table heads, senior Bethelite Howard Zenke, meant when he cautioned me that ``a lot of guys here are light on their feet," until Knorr purged the place of 43 alleged homosexuals. Until then , it almost seemed that being a bit precious and effeminate was a ticket out of the laundry or bindery to a prestigious office job of some sort.

    The drinking culture, a legacy of the Rutherford era, was pervasive, and I can recall at least six very serious cases of clinical alcohlism, in efery instance involving senior staffers of considerable responsibility. Two fo these were women, wives of high-ranking officials. There were several cases of fortyish-plus, menopausal wives of big shots who fantasized about, and even hit on, younger Bethelites. In short, however one regards the experience of having spent time there, it's a rare Bethelite who comes out of it with his/her idealism intact.

    There's much more of my experiences on the thread below:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=16156&site=3

    That's the view from Two One Five

  • Marcos
    Marcos

    Hey,

    Thanks for the replies. Your comments are great!

    You all reminded me of some things so, I will try to post some more things I remember. Just, please bear in mind that these are my memories and occasionally (not often) I remember things one way and someone else who was there may see it differently.

    Thanks again,

    Marcos

  • James2300
    James2300

    Marcos--LOL on the Fred Franz thing. I knew a closet gay bethelite that used to be Franz's nurse/caretaker for a time. I wonder if it's the same guy. By the way, do you think Fred Franz was gay? I've heard different things.

    Well, I agree that there are a lot of jerky bethelites, especially overseers. I've got a story about one Bethel elder that I'd like to share:

    My congregation was in Queens and was not well served the train. It was over an hour ride (sometimes over an hour and a half) to get to the territory. Unfortunately, the Kingdom Hall was over a mile away from the train station--so that meant a long walk. Because of this the single bethelites depended on the married couples who had cars for rides to the meeting. One couple hated taking riders and would use every trick they could to avoid driving us. For example, they would leave without you if you were two or three minutes late, they would refuse to tell you in advance when they were planning to head back to bethel on Sundays, and they would make comments to you if you complaimed about the situation, like 'well, there's always the train.'

    The other couple was eager to take riders because they needed the $3 each rider contributed for each roundtrip. Their car was a cramped import with no radio, AC, etc. The worst part of the car were the bald tires--especially in winter.

    I was assigned to the Sunday morning bookstudy. At first, I thought that was great because it gave me a free night during the week. However, I soon realized it wasn't so good. Bookstudy was at 8:30 in the morning. We left by car at eight o'clock. Following bookstudy was a 9:45 meeting for field service. After an hour or two of service, it was time to head to the hall for the 12 o'clock meeting. Usually, we would be home on Sundays by 3 or 4 o'clock. Because of the busy schedule, if you wanted to have any kind of coffee and breakfast in the morning you had to go down to the table on Sunday morning. So that meant that on Sunday I was up pretty early. I realized that I had traded a weekday night for my Saturday night.

    It got worse a few months later when the meeting was changed to 3 o'clock. The CO wouldn't permit the bookstudy to interfere with field service so it couldn't be anywhere from 9:30 to noon. We were offered bookstudy at the old time (8:30) or at 1:00, I think. For some reason, the group voted for 8:30. That meant I was out in the territory from 8:30 in the morning until six or seven at night.

    Of course, only the couple with the car with bald tires went to the Sunday morning bookstudy. Then, the brother started giving public talks to other congregations one or two times a month during the morning. Since I was his assistant, that meant I had to conduct bookstudy. That also meant I had to take the train to get there. The only way to get there on time, I found, was to leave at 6:45 in the morning. Of course, that was before breakfast was served, so if I wanted anything I had to buy it myself.

    The next year the meetings were changed again. The public talk and WT study was moved to 9:00 am and the book study to 2:00 pm. Remember, the Kingdom Hall was a mile away from the train station. If I couldn't get a ride, I had to take the train. To get there on time by train meant leaving home at about 7:00 am. (Once again, sacrificing breakfast.) After the meeting was field service, then book study, then the congregation provided a meal at about 3:30.

    One Saturday we got between six and eight inches of snowfall. Most congregations had already cancelled their Sunday meetings. Those that had not usually just waited until the morning to make the call. My estimate is that over 90% of NYC congregations cancelled their meetings that Sunday. The exceptions were the Russian congregations and a few oddballs--like ours. I did not want to ride in a car with bald tires. I also didn't want to take the train at seven in the morning and then walk a mile through six inches of snow. (I didn't have any snow shoes either--just dress shoes.)

    So, on Saturday I already decided to skip the meeting on Sunday.

    It seemed like a great opportunity to have some fun that night. I got together about a dozen bethelites and we went to the roof of 107 after midnight (so no one would stop us) and built a huge snowman. It was 10 feet tall, and about six feet wide at the bottom. It was a lot of fun and we didn't finish until after 3 in the morning. The next morning you could see it from the 360 Furman, the Brooklyn Bridge, and 90 Sands.

    Well, another bethelite told this elder (the one with bald tires) that I skipped Sunday's meeting because I was tired from staying up all night building snowmen. When I saw him next, he chewed me out and literally began to shove me. It took everything I had not to pick him up (he was a little guy) and carry him out of the KH and throw him in the snow.

    Well, thanks for reading my story.

    James

  • metatron
    metatron

    Bethel was a sweatshop hellhole in the 70's - especially if you were condemned to the
    laundry or bindery. The Society treated the brothers like slaves because they had the
    indirect power to change your draft classification (remember Vietnam?). After that, they
    had to become a little more humane because the average stay dropped to a little over a year
    - instead of the promised 4 years.

    Knorr was the most negative individual I've ever known. Dictatorial, condemnatory,
    uncomplimentary, and just plain nasty. Bethel was dominated ( was?) by sycophants
    and ass- kissers and guys too scared/paranoid to leave. Old timers told me Rutherford
    was even worse - although I've always wondered about those old rumors of a brothel
    that catered to Bethelites needs in that era.

    Bethel is a fading subculture that outsiders will never understand. You just had to
    be there.

    metatron

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