Farkel, i think you missed the point of at least what myself and a few other christians were saying. We are not denying FREEWILL in the sense that you are saying. If i want to hop in my car and go to the bank right now, thats my freewill. (It doesnt mean however if its not meant to be, my tire wont blow out) we are free in a sense to do anything in a fleshly sense. What we are NOT, and what we CANNOT do is come to God and recognize him as Soveriegn, and Love his Son, left to ourselves. Notice i didnt say "get religious" anybody can do that, just like hopping in the car. I'm talking about 100% trusting God, and bowing to his Sovereignty, and believing the Gospel.
Believers and their "Free Will" Dogma
by JT 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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acsot
Okay, I just read these posts today, and I have to add my two cents worth :
Sangdigger said :
I would call that love even if he chose to save just one person in 3 billion. Afterall, what does he owe anyone?
What if God chose not to save alot of people in China? Is there unrighteousness with God?
GOD DOES NOT OWE ANYBODY ANYTHING
so God will only save people based on their geographic location? What the ..? Is that your definition of a loving God ? He doesnt owe us anything? Hes the One who started all of this in the first place! Hes the one who supposedly sent his Son to a small geographic area on earth, knowing full well that the vast majority of mankind, throughout history, would never get to know about him, other than perhaps just knowing that someone called Jesus lived in Palestine 2,000 years ago.
Are you saying that the billions of Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and other non-Christian denominations wont get much of a chance of being saved since they dont know about Jesus, and that this is righteous on Gods part simply because those people were born in areas such as China, India or Afghanistan?
All men are born dead degenerate sinners in the sight of God. The good we measure is only good in our eyes not Gods.
As you said, we are born this way, not through free will or exercising any options. Therefore, no its not loving and just to be put to death for something we couldnt help. Thats like saying that if Im standing on a subway platform and some creep comes up behind me and pushes me so hard that I cant stop myself from bumping into the person ahead of me, thereby pushing that person down onto the tracks in front of an oncoming train, that its my fault rather than the person who pushed me?As NameWithheld2 said, if thats your concept of God, I want nothing to do with him/her/it.
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JT
calvin says
I am a believer who believes that I am a horrible sinner
and i respect your right to view "YOURSELF" AS A HORRIBLE SINNER, , but that has nothing to do with me-
i consider myself a person who tries to do the best that i can each day and help others out in any way i can
many folks consider themselves horrible drivers on the road i don't consider myself as such
ther problem is you believe that everyone MUST ACCEPT your belief system and in the real world everyone doesn't
you have chosen to accept what is called christainity, FINE, but everone doesn't so any guilt tripping that your belief system requuires of you such as feeling you are a HORRIBLE SINNER then that is merely part of your belief system not mine and many others
if that is how you want to beleive- great, but please don't impose your belief system on me or others
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siegswife
I agree with six completely on this...yet I call myself a Christian. Go figure.
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clash_city_rockers
JT posts in his responce to Calvin02:
and i respect your right to view "YOURSELF" AS A HORRIBLE SINNER, , but that has nothing to do with me-
i consider myself a person who tries to do the best that i can each day and help others out in any way i can
many folks consider themselves horrible drivers on the road i don't consider myself as such
This really greives me do you not understand that "doing the best you can" can never do enough to satisfy the rightious and holy demand of a Holy God? Doing the best you can and helping others will never get you out of the just judment of God. If you took the bible seriously then you would take it's estemation of man and it's historic pronouncement from God as serious and true. Yet your post reveales that you do not think that you are in need of the grace of God, but the account of the bible says the opposite that you are in desperate need of God's grace.
Remember God's grace is not some thing you earn. Grace is not an obligatory condition, that is God is not obligated to give you grace. If God is obligated to do anything at all it is to deal out justice for justice is obligatory it is owed to all. No, the nature of grace if volitional on God's part. God condesends to our behave and volineteers to save us and give grace.
JT posts:
ther problem is you believe that everyone MUST ACCEPT your belief system and in the real world everyone doesn't
No JT, the problem here is that you have to give an account for the plain meaning of these biblical passages that describe man's condition.
No one can hold to your position unless he/she does not take the bible seriously nor heed to it's authority then they can make up any old fable or story about the goodness of man.
cheers,
jr
Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 14 December 2002 7:28:59
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DannyBear
After reading Sand, Clash, and other fundementalists, it becomes very clear to me that they use god, the bible, 'righteousness', as a form of anesthesia.
Religion as a whole has served to anesthetize millions from personal responsibility. Once immersed in the 'blood of redemption', once annointed with heavenly 'grace', one can ignore all sorts of maladies. A cure for whatever ails you. An elixir of self medication for all who accept "the plain meaning" (plain meaning?) of what the bible says.
How someone can even assert the bible contains any 'plain meaning' is beyond me. The book itself a source for every slant, angel, view, interpretation, allowing anyone and his particular religious 'guru' to hypothesize.
Russell, Rutherford, Franz, some the more notorious as respects this forum.
Guilt, shame, and the need to pay for one's life choices, mistakes, have been the cataliyst for all religious dogma.
When you stop being guilty, and you start living the short life you have, without guilt without some manufactured need for 'grace'. Then and only then, can you even relate to what most bible believer's proclaim with little hesitation. 'Man was created in the image of God'
If you really believe that, then act like the mold you were poured from! Not like the miserable and guilty souls who thousands of year's ago, contrived to explain what god wants and demands.
Isn't God's handiwork enough to convince you what he wants? Isn't there enough beauty and peace, in the natural world around you, to demonstrate the kind of God he is?
He isn't anything like you 'guilt ridden', doom and gloom, repenter's paint a picture of.
Vibrant alive and full of color and beauty, all you have to do is open your literal eye's.
Danny
Danny
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SwedishChef
Isn't God's word enough to convince you of what he wants, Danny Bear? Without it, you have no true foundation. Biblical teaching is that God is loving and merciful. He is also a holy and righteous judge.
We are not guilt-ridden messengers of doom and gloom, we are proclaiming God's infinite and wondrous grace to a wicked and rebellious world; which God, through no works of our own, has pulled us out of. I deserve hell; but God, the loving, merciful and righteous Creator, saved me. And anyone who comes to Him, He will not cast out. This is not a message of doom and gloom, my friend, this is a message of good news, hence, the Gospel. I do not proclaim to be guilt-ridden, I proclaim to be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb! The guilt is gone, Jesus took my burden of sin away.
However, those who reject God will get what they deserve; which is an everlasting punishment. I am a messenger of the Gospel, but in order to tell someone how to be saved, you have to tell them what they are being saved from.
Christians [who are right with God] are not miserable creatures. They are perfectly satisfied with serving the God that saved them.As for you view of the Bible itself, it is obvious you have not studied it for yourself. In what instance is the Bible not clear about an issue? It contains plenty of plain meaning.
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DannyBear
SwedishChef,
***Isn't God's word enough to convince you of what he wants, Danny Bear?***
You may not realize it, but your simplistic, assumptive, question begs analysis. For the sake of brevity, I will ask you a question in response; Is the bible God's word just because it makes the claim, and YOU choose to believe it?
I will conclude by your initial question, that your answer is, yes.
In a nutshell this is where all fundementalists go astray, imo. They parrot and relentlessly preach a devotion to the words recorded in the bible as inspired of God. Yet when asked to prove that the 66 books as canonized as the modern bible, are in fact utterances from God, fundies resort to the round robing reasoning (circular), that it is God's word, because it say's so. Well shazaam, how convenient.
Having read all 66 books of the bible at least 4 times straight through, and thousands of 'out of context' rereads, due to Watchtower think and society methods, I cannot get past this glaring almost inane gullibility.
There is only one book in the bible that still intrigues me. That is the book of Daniel. Even today the wtbs society (aka Freddie Franz) did a real number on the Image with feet of iron and clay. To this day it is the only 'so called' prophecy (that is debatable..as respects time lines) that seems to accurately portray world governments from Neb to Anglo America. But it leaves so much unanswered, it appears to be prophetic, but is it?
The book of Psalms/ Proverbs are beautiful with many wise and valid commentary. Yet if only read other so called 'inspired' works, the book of Mormon, the koran, or even secular poets, one can find similar inspiration.
No Chef your argument and proceeding comments fall flat, when you cannot answer your own initial query.
The bible has never been proven to be the inspired utterances of God. You simply cannot do it, without resorting to 'the bible tells me so'.
Danny