Activists vs rationalists

by donkey 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • donkey
    donkey

    As humans our brain works in ways that make us tend to generalize and categorize things, including the types of people. Being as I am half human (the other three quarters are pure ass...) I do the same. From my observations I see 3 types of people on this board:

    1. The Activists
    2. The Rationalists
    3. The Rest of us (rest-of-us (TM))

    The question I wonder is multi-faceted: Which groups have agendas? What are the agendas? Of those who have agendas are there crossovers and if so who would be more effective at achieving the agendas?

    I will classify myself as a rationalist. Of course we all like to think we are rational - but there are distinct differences between an activist and a rationalist. By way of example I have pulled off this post to analyze:

    I've just received the lastest issue of Freeminds Journal. On the back page is an article entitled "The Pedophile at Your Door" by Mike Pence.
    "The Department of Justice states that between one and five percent of the population are pedophiles. Congregatons of Jehovah's Witnesses typically number around one hundred members, sometimes more, sometimes less. Even rounding in their favor that could still amount to a pedophile per congregation, declaring their faith on the thresholds of our homes."
    I'll retype it and put it on a new thread. I'm also assuming that all the indepth responses that have been posted on this issue of Franz/Bowen/SilentLambs will contribute thoughtful responses to this article as we're so interested in it? Btw, it's a widely agreed assumption that most pedophiles will never be discovered, nor will most victims of pedophiles who molest ever speak out.

    "The pedophile at your door" - what does that imply? To me it implies that most everyone who comes to my door as a JW is a pedophile. Well we know that isn't true. An activist will point out one example and then seek to justify their stance. So if we say that true there are pedophiles in the midst of JW's does that mean they have NO right to knock at your door? Since activists will claim they are rational I assume they can admist that postal workers will also tend to follow average statistics - so they do not want mail delivered any longer then either since the mailman might be a pedophile. In fact if we use the same line of argument as activists use then will we say that "all mailmen are pedophiles"?

    When people scream and cry with emotional anger they are not very effective - and they make serious mistakes. Those mistakes can get them into serious trouble at times too. For example, will people make the mistake of posting the names of governing body members (who have boundless resources at their disposal) and claiming that such are pedophiles or inferring that such are pedophiles without SOLID evidence? To do so in an American society you are either very brave or very stupid. Either way you are not rational. The rational person, armed with solid evidence, will use the justice system to fight the battle. Making false claims or aligning/surrounding yourself with others who are emotionally disposed to bring down the WT at all costs will not succeed. The cost will be YOUR credibility and you will not succeed. If you want to use activists for a cause it is a well understood principle among leaders that you use activists - however you have to DIRECT them and they have to use the powerful energy they have to act within planned strategy. The strategy needs to be based on solid evidence which will remain undisputed in a court of law - not threads of unprovable accusations.

    Sensationalism only works for a limited time. Make it too strong and it loses its effect. Build up to a sensational ending using rational means - don't shoot off the fireworks before the show.

    That's my thought for the week.

    Edited by - donkey on 23 November 2002 13:5:6

  • Aztec
    Aztec

    I think I'm a rationalist with an activist streak. Just depends on the topic and the time of the month.

    ~Aztec

  • Mum
    Mum

    I'm not sure what your point is, but I do need to respond to a portion of your premise regarding pedophiles at the door:

    If a postal worker is a pedophile, that is entirely different from a door-to-door evangelizer's being a pedophile. The person who delivers your mail does not spend time talking to you and/or your children: he/she leaves the mail and moves on. The government worker who is suspected of pedophilia is most likely going to be suspended from his duties, be reported and go to jail if he/she is guilty.

    I do not want any pedophiles at my door regardless of their business there. What I do want is for the organization the pedophile represents to take the appropriate action to keep them from my door, your door and everyone else's door.

    Regards,

    SandraC

  • gsx1138
    gsx1138

    I just think all extremists should be shot.

  • donkey
    donkey
    If a postal worker is a pedophile, that is entirely different from a door-to-door evangelizer's being a pedophile. The person who delivers your mail does not spend time talking to you and/or your children: he/she leaves the mail and moves on. The government worker who is suspected of pedophilia is most likely going to be suspended from his duties, be reported and go to jail if he/she is guilty

    Of course no rational person wants pedophiles at their door. But making blanket statements or sensationalising things is a sure long term route to failure for the cause activists so vehemently follow.

    Your children are going to come into contact with people from all groups. The average statistics cover all groups - so are you going to lock your children in the cellar to protect them from all the other people? You have 2 choices here:

    1. All Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT pedophiles (therefore making the sensational claims is dishonest)
    2. All people of all groups share the same stats as JWS (approximately) - so then if senationalsim stands as the order of the day then all people are pedophiles.

    The sensational agenda is illogical and will quickly be seen as such by all.

  • cookie
    cookie

    Donkey:

    This is an excellent thread and I can't wait for the responses to your 4 questions.

    1) I believe each group has its own raison d'etre

    2) What agenda? (that is the biggy) Maybe we don't learn of it until the purpose for which the agenda was launched is fulfilled. (But if we are inquisitive and sensitive enough ,we just might get a sense of where it is headed and we might even figure it out ahead of time)

    3)There might always be crossovers, (if not by design) maybe just because they were won over by compelling reasoning,although it could also be deliberate infiltration.

    4) The side that is now most effective with me is the one that gets me to understand a concept rather than one that just parrots someone else's argument.

    But success is a relative term:The WT succeeded in deceiving many of us. Our success was in the discovery that they were trying to decieve.

    You say:

    "Making false claims or aligning/surrounding yourself with others who are emotionally disposed to bring down the WT at all costs will not succeed. The cost will be YOUR credibility and you will not succeed." ( Could THAT be an actual agenda?)

    The cost will be YOUR credibility :Good reason to maintain independent thinking (no matter what issue is at hand)

    Cookie

  • MYOHNSEPH
    MYOHNSEPH

    rational 1. [Acting in accordance with reason] Syn. reasonable, logical, sensible, stable, calm, cool, deliberate, discerning, discriminating, level-headed, collected, ratiocinative, thoughtful, knowing, of sound judgment, showing good sense, impartial, exercising reason, intelligent, wise, reasoning, prudent, circumspect, intellectual, reflective, philosophic, objective, far-sighted, enlightened, well-advised, judicious, analytical, deductive, synthetic, perspicacious, conscious, balanced, sober, systematic, all there*, together*; see also reasonable

  • cookie
    cookie

    Donkey:

    An afterthought: this thread and our responses to it might give you insight into which category each respondent fits into.(could that be an agenda?LOL)

    Seriously,do we answer your questions or do we get distracted by the emotion in your argument?

    I have already answered the questions. As to the argument, y ou wrote: "The pedophile at your door" - what does that imply? To me it implies that most everyone who comes to my door as a JW is a pedophile. Well we know that isn't true. That is rational.

    BUT:

    If you really do think THAT WAY, why do you do just that in relation to other issues on this forum. If someone reads from alternative sources that don't fit within the mainstream,does that automatically identify them with the authors whom they learn from?

    Extreme example(I know) :If a Nazi and a Jew were looking at the moon and they both saw the same thing and each commented , 'That really is the moon!,' does it make the Nazi a Jew? Does it make the Jew a Nazi?

    Sorry,but something is not right with this picture, Donkey.

    Cookie

    PS: Apology for all of this yellow but can someone please tell this NEWBIE how to stop this darn highligting! It just keeps going and going!

  • BB
    BB

    Limiting yourself to one thought per week or does it take you that long to formulate just the one thought?

    Id be interested in hearing your views on Jehovahs Witnesses and whether or not you feel the religion is no better or worse than other organized religions.

    Also, in your view, would victims of abuse within Jehovahs Witnesses congregations be better served by seeking help through available resources other than those provided by Silent Lambs?

    BB

  • donkey
    donkey

    If you really do think THAT WAY, why do you do just that in relation to other issues on this forum. If someone reads from alternative sources that don't fit within the mainstream,does that automatically identify them with the authors whom they learn from?

    Cookie,

    I take it you are referring to me giving Jim Rizo a hard time? If that is the case then please read his postings in which he claims that the Nazis did not have concentration camps but instead had work camps etc. I don't feel like rehashing it. But if I am to answer your question specifically and generally it would go as follows: I see nothing wrong with identifying someone with their written views. The fact that the views are not mainstream is not relevant to my feelings. Common sense and established facts should be the order of the day - when they are clearly lacking though then the truth is self evident.

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