Ray Franz And Things That Are Too Hard To Handle. (page 4)

waiting

Interesting comments.

One thing I don't understand is Franz's new edition of CofC which has the issue of the United Nations in it. At least, that was what was said in an earlier thread. Is that so? I've talked with several jw's about the UN thing.........and they were totally un-impressed. Glossed right over it. Why? To them, not that big of a deal. Sorry, even to me, it wasn't near as gross, evil, sinful, hypocritical as the child abuse issue.

And anyone outside a jw wouldn't even understand what we or Franz were shouting about UN involvement - they would have No Clue. But ever person understands child rape; & most abhore it.

Now, all the Big Men have stated that they abhore child abuse also. Dr. Penton & COJ also state that they feel that the JW child abuse problem is no worse that any other religion's child abuse problem . Fair statement. What about the way JW authorities handle the problem? Is that different than other religions? The Catholics and Canadian Anglicans have been rightfully damned for the way their organizations handled physical & sexual child abuse. Damned - and found guilty for their handling the "problem" by media, members, & Courts. Are we to assume that the JW's have the same "problem", but are above the same notoriety & laws? The same publicity?

But Franz sees no reason to even mention this problem of jw's raping children and coercing silence from the victims & their families in his new edition. All the Big Men see child abuse amongst jw's as a problem - because they all agree that the problem is no worse among jw's than any other religion. And all religions see to have the problem.

Ray Franz may never have heard of child abuse in all his decades of dealing with all those congregations as a CO & GB member - radically different that Maximus's experiences. Okay. But Franz never heard of the UN thing either, because it didn't happen till the 90's, and wasn't discovered until this year by outstanding posters on the net.

Just recently, he's learned of the UN issue. And it's now in his book - at least that's what I've been told. He has the freedom to mention any issue he wants in his books, but if he dismisses pertinent religious abuses by the WT in a book which exposes the WT, then the book is offbase to fit his personal parameters, imho.

UN issue - worth a update. JW Child abuse as bad as any other church - not even mentioned. Why?

Btw, if child abuse is cited along with the UN issue in Franz' new edition - could someone please put it up? Or if neither issue is cited, that info also? My book is now 2 years old.....and I value it - and Franz - very much, thank you.

waiting

Edited by - waiting on 18 November 2002 10:32:8

IslandWoman

Waiting,

UN issue - worth a update. JW Child abuse as bad as any other church - not even mentioned.

I don't know why that is. Write to him and ask.

Btw, Bill Bowen posted yesterday on the Channel C Forum. His "war" on Ray Franz continues. I believe he is hurting the cause of the Silentlambs Org. by continuing this Ray is wrong and he is right thing.

IW

Englishman

Btw, Bill Bowen posted yesterday on the Channel C Forum. His "war" on Ray Franz continues.

So it does continue. Damn. I want to support Silent Lambs without having to choose between BB and RF. No wonder HS couldn't stomach any more of it.

This is going to develop into a leadership thing, even though RF doesn't seem to want it, BB does appear to IMHO.

Damn damn damn.

Englishman.

waiting

UN issue - worth a update. JW Child abuse as bad as any other church - not even mentioned. - waiting

I don't know why that is. Write to him and ask. - iw

What? And get scriptures in response? I've read the Big Men's responses here....and as I've previously said - they were very enlightening into their personalities and beliefs. In a negative way, I was impressed. I have no wish to engage Franz through scripture and/or letter writing. I have both his books - which should contain his viewpoints, right? I asked about the New Edition.

As I also said, Franz has every right to address any issues he pleases in his own books. But by the issues he addresses, and the one he remains silent upon, he is stating his viewpoints .

While writing about the Jehovah's Witness religion, it would seem prudent to address all the major issues, whether one agrees or not. After all, if one were writing about the failings of the Catholic Church, it would seem that one would be remiss to not mention all the Court cases against them for child molestation, and the harboring of child molesters unbeknown to their own flock. And I don't think it's been proven that the Catholic Church has any worse problem with child abusers than any other religion. I personally think the Canadian Anglican church is right down there with them.

Just a curiousity on my part, but one worth watching - but not worth wading through scriptures about. Had my full of that, thank you.

waiting

IslandWoman

Waiting,

Had my full of that, thank you.

My exact feeling when reading Bill Bowen's "non-scriptual" regurgitation on Channel C.

It seems that unless RF and other prominant people in the xJW world do not "goose step" to Bill Bowens music it means they support pedophiles. This kind of thought manipulation and vile accusations arising from omissions is wrong.

Perhaps we should require that Bill come here and list all the things he opposes and supports in the Org and the Bible along with his personal history as an elder. T hen we can individually dec ide whether or not he meets up to our standards, and if he should omit something well, it must mean he is "stating his viewpoints".

If the day should come that Bill Bowen finds himself in his eighties with some newbie xJW second guessing BB's actions and statements over his entire life, I would tell him "get off of Bill's back!" I would defend Bill to the hilt because he tried to do what he thought was right at the time and no johnny come lately has the right to judge him.

IW

waiting

Perhaps we should require that Bill come here and list all the things he opposes and supports in the Org and the Bible along with his personal history as an elder. Then we can individually decide whether or not he meets up to our standards, and if he should omit something well, it must mean he is "stating his viewpoints". - iw

Eye roll aside, you're deliberately mudding the water with your first sentence. Franz was spoken about regarding one issue - the word "all" wasn't uttered by Bowen to my knowledge. As for silence? I believe the WT has been damned for what they put in - and remained silent upon - in their own rewritten history contained within their Proclaimers novel.

Bowen didn't write two books, wasn't a member of the Governing Body, wasn't a long-time Circuit Overseer. Bowen wasn't used within the WT to author principles and interpretations of the Bible for WT use. Bowen never had the clout - inside or outside the WT - that Franz did/does have. Btw, both men have done a remarkable job - and I've always stated that.

If the day should come that Bill Bowen finds himself in his eighties with some newbie xJW second guessing BB's actions and statements over his entire life, I would tell him "get off of Bill's back!" I would defend Bill to the hilt because he tried to do what he thought was right at the time and no johnny come lately has the right to judge him. - iw

Nope. Age has nothing to do with it. AGuest made a good point....if age has anything to do with a person & their thinking.......then all of us should "get off the GB's back!" as they are all as old - or older - than Franz.

Newbie? I've been called to the carpet for suggesting that a Newbie didn't have the capabilities of making fine points as well as Old Ones. The point was correct - either the Newbie has a credible point or not. It has very little, or nothing, to do with time in/out or previous jw station in life.

Again, you're deliberatly mudding the water with statements like "second guessing.....actions and statements over his entire life". No one has done that to Franz.

It seems that unless RF and other prominant people in the xJW world do not "goose step" to Bill Bowens music it means they support pedophiles. -iw

"Seems" is a strong word by implication. But it proves nothing - as your statement shows.

waiting

ozziepost

G'day IW,

Very disconcerting news. Please tell a lad from downunder, What did BB post on Channel C? What's Channel C?

Cheers, Ozzie

waiting

Hey ozzie,

Guess I saw your question first? As IW indicated, same ol - same ol. Queen Beetle brought it over to Bboy's, if you'd like to read it. Actually, I don't think there was anything new being said, just said to a different forum.

waiting

jgnat

Ozzie, here is the link to Channel C. http://www.channelc.org/

It is a haven for non-trinitarian independent thinkers who want to talk about God without judgement from the WTS. I am grateful for that site, since it led me to this one.

bluesapphire

Waiting, I have the new edition of COC.

Ray Franz DOES go into the UN scandal and even devoted space to pictures of the letters Hawkaw got from the DPI.

Ray Franz DOES NOT mention the pedophile problem in the organization.

I find this troubling to say the least and I'm saddened that he couldn't take this opportunity to address this important issue.

Ray Franz And Things That Are Too Hard To Handle.

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