Reformed Episcopal View of Christ

by thepreacher 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • thepreacher
    thepreacher

    NECESSITY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT IN UNDERSTANDING THE WORK OF CHRIST

    By Curtis I. Crenshaw

    I n the volume of the book, it is written of Christ ( Heb. 10:7 ). How does the Old Testament guide us in understanding the work of Christ?

    We may ask, Why Christ at all? Was it an accident that He appeared in human history? Why did He state that He came to offer Himself as a sacrifice? Why did He not come as an adult instead of by virgin birth? Who was He? How could He do the miracles He did and teach with such authority? The Old Testament gives the context to answer all these.

    First, Why Christ at all? It was necessary for Him to come because man fell into sin, as we see in

    Genesis 3 . When man fell into sin, he incurred two problems: lack of obedience to God's law and the penalty of death. Jesus came to obey God's law perfectly for His people ( Rom. 5:18-19 ) and to undergo the penalty of wrath and death as the substitute ( Mark 10:45; Gal. 3:13 ). Without seeing the fall of mankind into sin in Genesis 3, we would not understand the most basic reason for the incarnation.

    Second, the Old Testament prepares us for His sacrifice, not only with

    Genesis 3:15 but also with the whole sacrificial system. Therefore, when the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom ( Matt. 27:51 , salvation comes down from God), we understand the meaning: the Holy of Holies is opened by the blood of Jesus to all believers and forgiveness of sins is accomplished.

    Third, He came by virgin birth so that He could be born under the law and obey it perfectly for us in answer to Adam's disobedience and in fulfillment of Genesis 3:15 and

    Isaiah 7:14 . Since Adam was a man, it was necessary for Christ to be the same, sin being the exception.

    Fourth, we are prepared for who He is by the Old Testament theophanies to Abraham, Joshua and others, by direct statements that He was from eternity (

    Micah 5:2 ) and God Himself ( Isa. 9:6-7 ). Thus when we read in John 1 that Christ "dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory" (John 1:14), we are prepared to see deity, especially in the Greek word for "dwelt" that means "tabernacle." As the tabernacle in the Old Testament was outwardly plain but inwardly beautiful and was the place of God's dwelling, even so Jesus looked like any ordinary man but He was also God (not just God dwelling in Him)! Hence, He could do miracles that no one else could, and He taught with authority because of who He was.

    As a pastor I'm always looking for ways to apply the Bible to the lives of my parishioners. I must guard my flock from heresies as well as edify them. The three great heresies of the church over the centuries are Pelagianism, Gnosticism, and Arianism.

    If mankind could have saved himself (Pelagianism), Christ did not need to come. And if we think that we can contribute one iota to His completed work, even our so-called free will, we have denied the sufficiency and perfection of what He has done. Thus we do not look to government to expunge our guilt nor do we engage in self-atonement through our works. Too much of modern counseling is self-atonement through feeling good about oneself.

    Gnosticism maintains that the non-physical aspects of life are holy, like reading the Bible or being a minister, but that the "mundane" and physical aspects are second rate, such as one's occupation or the culture as a whole. The incarnation, Christ adding to perfect deity a real human body, His coming to the earth, and working as a carpenter, preclude such. We often hear people say that they do not have to attend church to be a Christian, which is to say that physically gathering with the saints is not important, only what one does between his ears counts. The incarnation, however, demonstrates that doing "physical" things is holiness. God is a covenant God (new covenant), and salvation is not simply an individual matter but a corporate one as well. The physical sacraments, therefore, are vitally important and so is church attendance, outside of which there is ordinarily no salvation (WCF).

    Arianism is alive and well today, and not only among Jehovah's Witnesses. In the Word-Faith movement the uniqueness of Christ is denied by maintaining that we can do anything Jesus can, by saying that we also are incarnations of God, or by the more subtle but no less heretical view that Jesus may have been God while on earth but He allegedly did not function as God. Evangelicals also implicitly deny His deity when they think that they have unique problems, and that even Jesus has no answer for them!

    Indeed, in the Old Testament there are persons (Joseph, David, Daniel), places (Jerusalem, temple, tabernacle), events (exit from Egypt), sacrifices (Day of Atonement), things (scapegoat, laver, mercy seat), and direct statements (

    Ps. 2 ) that prepare us for the coming of Christ and helps us interpret His work. This was how He taught His disciples to read the Old Testament ( Luke 24:44-45 ). We must also learn that such truths have application in every area of our lives, not just between our ears.

    Rev. Curtis Crenshaw,Th.M. is pastor of Reformed Episcopal Church of the Covenant in Amarillo, Tex.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Hello!

    I liked what you posted here, and I agreed with everything, except, for a couple of things.

    First you said:

    if we think that we can contribute one iota to His completed work, even our so-called free will, we have denied the sufficiency and perfection of what He has done.

    And I agree with that. That's what the Bible teaches.

    But then you said:

    The physical sacraments, therefore, are vitally important and so is church attendance, outside of which there is ordinarily no salvation

    Please show me Scriptures that support this statement.

    It seems to me that this statement pretty much contradicts what you said in the first statement I quoted.

    I have not seen any Scriptures that say "Attending Church" is required for Salvation.

    Acts 16:30: And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Acts 16:31: And they said, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, and your household.

    Note that Paul and Silas did not say: "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, Get Baptized, Attend Church, Partake of the Bread and Wine, and then you shall be saved."

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    Some plain reasoning on those heresies -

    I would have thought that jws follow Pelagianism in as much as Arianism - sort of goes hand in hand - hard to imagine Arianism without any Pelagian thought involved - and the wt certainly gets in on some gnosticism as well - special knowledge an' all.

    I used to think Pelagianistically when I was younger - I'm sure it's influenced by overbearing threats of punishment, coupled with ideas of reward.

    Pelagianism = slave Arianism = pride Gnosticism = delusion

    Watch out for heresies eh - all three combined make for some pretty strong hypocracy.

    paduan

  • barry
    barry

    Pelagian was a Irish or Scottish monk who beleived we could be perfect if we followed the example of Christ her on earth. It was said Pelagans mind was befuddled by too much porridge because of this beleif. Barry

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    RE not bad do you like Gerhaudus Vos??????????

    I live you view but I would like to share the Reformed view: From the Westminster Confession of Faith

    Chapter VIII

    Of Christ the Mediator

    I. It pleased God, in His eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus, His only begotten Son, to be the Mediator between God and man,[1] the Prophet,[2] Priest,[3] and King,[4] the Head and Savior of His Church,[5] the Heir of all things,[6] and Judge of the world:[7] unto whom He did from all eternity give a people, to be His seed,[8] and to be by Him in time redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.[9]

    II. The Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon Him man's nature,[10] with all the essential properties, and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin;[11] being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the virgin Mary, of her substance.[12] So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion.[13] Which person is very God, and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man.[14]

    III. The Lord Jesus, in His human nature thus united to the divine, was sanctified, and anointed with the Holy Spirit, above measure,[15] having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge;[16] in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell;[17] to the end that, being holy, harmless, undefiled, and full of grace and truth,[18] He might be thoroughly furnished to execute the office of a Mediator and Surety.[19] Which office He took not unto Himself, but was thereunto called by His Father,[20] who put all power and judgment into His hand, and gave Him commandment to execute the same.[21]

    IV. This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake;[22] which that He might discharge, He was made under the law,[23] and did perfectly fulfil it;[24] endured most grievous torments immediately in His soul,[25] and most painful sufferings in His body;[26] was crucified, and died,[27] was buried, and remained under the power of death, yet saw no corruption.[28] On the third day He arose from the dead,[29] with the same body in which He suffered,[30] with which also he ascended into heaven, and there sits at the right hand of His Father,[31] making intercession,[32] and shall return, to judge men and angels, at the end of the world.[33]

    V. The Lord Jesus, by His perfect obedience, and sacrifice of Himself, which He through the eternal Spirit, once offered up unto God, has fully satisfied the justice of His Father;[34] and purchased, not only reconciliation, but an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for those whom the Father has given unto Him.[35]

    VI. Although the work of redemption was not actually wrought by Christ till after His incarnation, yet the virtue, efficacy, and benefits thereof were communicated unto the elect, in all ages successively from the beginning of the world, in and by those promises, types, and sacrifices, wherein He was revealed, and signified to be the seed of the woman which should bruise the serpent's head; and the Lamb slain from the beginning of the world; being yesterday and today the same, and forever.[36]

    VII. Christ, in the work of mediation, acts according to both natures, by each nature doing that which is proper to itself;[37] yet, by reason of the unity of the person, that which is proper to one nature is sometimes in Scripture attributed to the person denominated by the other nature.[38]

    VIII. To all those for whom Christ has purchased redemption, He does certainly and effectually apply and communicate the same;[39] making intercession for them,[40] and revealing unto them, in and by the word, the mysteries of salvation;[41] effectually persuading them by His Spirit to believe and obey, and governing their hearts by His word and Spirit;[42] overcoming all their enemies by His almighty power and wisdom, in such manner, and ways, as are most consonant to His wonderful and unsearchable dispensation.[43]

    [1] ISA 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 1PE 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. JOH 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 1TI 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

    [2] ACT 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

    [3] HEB 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

    [4] PSA 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. LUK 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

    [5] EPH 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

    [6] HEB 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

    [7] ACT 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    [8] JOH 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. PSA 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. ISA 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

    [9] 1TI 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. ISA 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee. 1CO 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.

    [10] JOH 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 1JO 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. PHI 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. GAL 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

    [11] HEB 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    [12] LUK 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. GAL 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

    [13] LUK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. COL 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. ROM 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 1PE 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. 1TI 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    [14] ROM 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh. ROM 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 1TI 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

    [15] PSA 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. JOH 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    [16] COL 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    [17] COL 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell.

    [18] HEB 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens. JOH 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    [19] ACT 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. HEB 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. HEB 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

    [20] HEB 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

    [21] JOH 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son. 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. MAT 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. ACT 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    [22] PSA 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, 8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. HEB 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come(in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. JOH 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. PHI 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    [23] GAL 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

    [24] MAT 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    [25] MAT 26:37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. LUK 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. MAT 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    [26] SEE MAT 26-27

    [27] PHI 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    [28] ACT 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. ROM 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

    [29] 1CO 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.

    [30] JOH 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

    [31] MAR 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

    [32] ROM 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. HEB 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

    [33] ROM 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. ACT 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. MAT 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. JUD 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 2PE 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

    [34] ROM 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. HEB 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. EPH 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. ROM 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    [35] DAN 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. COL 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. JOH 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. HEB 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    [36] GAL 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. GEN 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. REV 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. HEB 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

    [37] HEB 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 1PE 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

    [38] ACT 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. JOH 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 1JO 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

    [39] JOH 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    [40] 1JO 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. ROM 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    [41] JOH 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. EPH 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself. JOH 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

    [42] JOH 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever. HEB 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 2CO 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak. ROM 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. JOH 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    [43] PSA 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 1CO 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. MAL 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts. COL 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

    blessings in Christ,

    jr

    Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 15 November 2002 2:57:54

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    A Paduan, Calling the kettle black.....

    last time I recall you had a very hard time with the Pauline doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone and God's soveringnty over man's free will.

    You have the same old semi-Palagian/ Palagian hang-ups against the bible as the JWs do....

    Remember Agustine had more in common with Calvin than with Tridentine Romanism

    Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 15 November 2002 2:58:54

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    From the "39 Articles of Religion" from http://www.recus.org

    XX. Of the Authority of the Church.
    The Church hath power to decree Rites or Ceremonies, and authority in Controversies of Faith: and yet it is not lawful for the Church to ordain any thing that is contrary to God's Word written, neither may it so expound one place of Scripture, that it be repugnant to another. Wherefore, although the Church be a witness and a keeper of Holy Writ, yet, as it ought not to decree any thing against the same, so besides the same ought it not to enforce any thing to be believed for necessity of Salvation.

    As far as I have seen, the Bible does not say that Attending Church is required for Salvation.

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    I do not believe that attending church is a requirement for salvation just trusting Chist.

    One question though. Where do covenant people of God belong? In the church or out of the church?

    If one forsakes the church how is one to recieve the primary means of grace? Preaching and the sacramnets.

    Sure one can listen to surmons by thier favorite preacher weather it be Micheal Horton, James Montgomery Boice, R.C. Sproul, Philip Ryken, Joseph Pipa, Alister Begg or John McArthur and they are a helpful and even a secondary means of grace.

    But doesn't God meet with his people corprately? That is through the public preaching of his word (public talks ) and the bread and wine of the visable preaching that is the Lord's supper?

    These things can only be found in the church. Church is the visable corprate, covenant community of God. God Does not work through rugged American Individualism but through his bride the he has saved....the Church.

    Just a thought,

    jr

  • The Firm
    The Firm
    "As far as I have seen, the Bible does not say that Attending Church is required for Salvation."

    It's certainly not because it's not there. I think the problem is with perceived authority. For some reason, many people tend to believe that the Bible is the "pillar and foundation of truth", when it's not, it's the "church" (1 tim 3:15). The Bible, as a fruit of said church, certainly points to the church's authority (example, Matt 18:17). Among dozens of OT texts that anticipate Christ as the clean oblation, He mandates that we must eat his body and blood or else face the consequences (Jn 6, of course , and often in Epistles and Revelation). Attending church--Christ's church--is His divine arrangement and means by which to receive it. Abstaining from church= abstaining from Him. In light of JW's though, I doubt that anyone would understand the efficacy and necessity of the sacraments (esp. Christ's true presence in the Eucharist) without the proper mindset of "the church" as the ultimate authority (as opposed to the Bible).

    Edited by - The Firm on 19 November 2002 4:48:55

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers
    I doubt that anyone would understand the efficacy and necessity of the sacraments (esp. Christ's true presence in the Eucharist) without the proper mindset of "the church" as the ultimate authority (as opposed to the Bible).

    Well firm, I hope you mean Christ's presence in the sacraments in a spiritual sence and not in some silly transubstaniation sence or con-substantiation sence..

    The Papist view is unscriptural escpecially the representation of the sacrafice of the Mass. Hebrews 9 does away with all that Papist rubish.

    Even if you were a Papist your exercise of the Mass is totally dumb down and protestantiezwd in the Vatican 2's Novis Ordum.

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