by proplog2 51 Replies latest jw friends
Proplog hasn't responded to my simple observation that he's attempting to replace all other propaganda with HIS propaganda. If we're smart enough to reject the bullshit coming from the WT, we're certainly smart enough to reject the bullshit coming from Proplog.
(He IS an arrogant SOB, isn't he?)
Francois:
I've been very up front about it. I said from the outset that:
"Some of what I quote is ALSO propaganda but there are sufficient
facts contained here to work as an antidote to some of the mental
poison fed the American Public."
I hope I didn't call anyone names in the process. I do believe in
criticizing information and feel quite justified in calling the stuff
that is being used to whip up aggressive and warring emotions as
"mental poison".
However,you have called ME names and have referred to my mother as a
female dog.
This is a gross failure at rebutting an argument.
You have some serious personal problems.
"Some of what I quote is ALSO propaganda but there are sufficient
facts contained here to work as an antidote to some of the mental
poison fed the American Public."
Why would you print any prop aganda at all? The facts are that you print such garbage and then unsuccessfully
try to lure someone into an argument defending things that you have not at all proven are
President Bush' reasons for putting presure on Iraqi. Your justification for such non-sense is
to combat some mythical ramblings from an unknown source that you call mental poison.
Then, you refuse to not only provide a source for this mythical poison but also fail to identify
any reference to it.
"I didn't call anyone names in the process. I do believe in
criticizing information and feel quite justified in calling the stuff
that is being used to whip up aggressive and warring emotions as
"mental poison".
After a complete failure to identify the content of this mental poison and its source, you then use this
figment of your imagination to justify yourself in calling it mental poison. Talk about circular reasoning!
It's a roulette wheel of idiocy!
"This is a gross failure at rebutting an argument. You have serious personal problems".
Proplog2, you have formulated no argument at all. You present, by your own admission - propaganda,
provide not one single solitary reference to your imaginary "mental poison", and avoid clear reasoned requests
to explain the justification for your mind numbing rhetoric.
Then, you attempt to shift your complete incompetence at making any argument at all, to the "failure"
of others to reply to that complete lack of evidence. You have presented absolutly
nothing to reply to! After all this, you have the audacity to cowardly attempt to elevate your own stature
by telling others that they have "personal problems"?
This delusional, pitiful attempt to destroy the legitamacy of our nation can only be understood from the
standpoint of gross ignorance of factual data. Or, possibly it is an attempt to feel better
about yourself by somehow destroying the argument of someone who has fallen for your redherrings
and is even more incompetent than you in logical, coherent thought....if such a person can be found.
If by some miracle you can provide an example of your hokey "mental poison" from the likes ofPresident Bush, National Security Advisor and Top Advisor on Foreign Affairs Condoleezza Rice,or Secretary of State Colin Powell, then your post might actually take on a characterother than comic relief.However, if you do nothing more than spew your unsubstatiated hate of the American and UN position onthis issue you have done little more than provide support for the idea that the al-Qaida network is notAmerica's most dangerous enemy. Who might be the greatest enemy then? Every rotten, radical, tantrum throwingultra left-winger in this country, that's who.
Edited by - Perry on 11 November 2002 9:8:48
Edited by - Perry on 11 November 2002 9:9:44
Edited by - Perry on 11 November 2002 9:13:19
You guys are LAME. The guy researches quotes and you shoot them down because they're not quotes from people you FEEL are valid enough?!?!
You're the type of people that only hear what you want to hear. Anything contrary to your believes or feelings you immediately shoot it down.
You put all your trust in GEORGE BUSH and POWELL, as if they're perfect and would never EVER tell a lie to the world.
What's so difficult about recognizing the good and bad things of America? That's all this about. Shoot, I like Lenny Kravitz, but I think some of his music is lame at the same time. And, in person, he's very arrogant. So I can see how some people like him and some don't, or others, like myself, recognize the good and bad.
Unless any of you can prove any of the quotes to be false or taken out of context, you have no right to talk negatively of them or the poster. If you want to live in your "America is Perfect" fantasy land, feel free, but don't criticize the rest of us that like to be informed of what's really go on in the world, past and present.
I wish people on this board would learn how to disagree with or challenge posts in a less aggressive manner.
Unless any of you can prove any of the quotes to be false or taken out of context, you have no right to talk negatively of them or the poster.
back2dafront,
The poster presented over 10 pages of quotes and then leaves himself an escape route if challenged, with the statement that he knows some of them to be false propaganda. How is the reader to know which ones the author believes to be true? He has done no research at all. It is little more than regurgitation of someone elses' thoughts.
Then, he chooses 3 "reasons" for the US/UN position on IRAQ, and boldly proclaims he will "obliterate" anyone who challenges these. Since, he knows that he cannot refute the REAL and PRIMARY reason for the stance on IRAQ, he erects these three straw men that he feels are more easily defended.
The only real statement of position that the poster took was the declaration that the American public is being fed "mental poison". When asked for examples of this, there was only silence.
The burden of proof is not on the readers but rather, upon the author of such declarations.
Perry:
Propaganda is not bad. It is simply a preference. I have learned from 10 years on the internet (yes it has been 10years!!!) that rational argumentation does very little good when you are discussing things with people who are ignorant of the common fallacies or who argue in bad faith. That's where propaganda comes in. Since people prefer THEIR personal world of information sources you can never do more than neutralize opposing views. Almost NO ONE has patience to do the rigorous analysis required to approximate reality.
Just talk to Farkel and see if its worth the time to dissect the premises and conclusions (Sinces &.Therefores) of the topics under discussion here. If you're good at pointing out fallacies you have a skill that will aid YOU as you consider various issues, but it has little impact on the beliefs and concepts of the ordinary person who has never studied logic, or has never used logic outside of a classroom.
I list propaganda merely to show that there are intelligent people who take dissenting positions. Those ponderous quotes represent 10 minutes research on the internet. People don't usually do research on opposing viewpoints.
In the end the only reward for the wise is to be able to say "I told you So". That's if they live long enough.
I draw the line at personal attacks. When people call me a name they have gone beyond normal discourse and I won't waste time talking to them. I can endure ignorance but not hostility. Fighting words in real life lead to real fights. I am a peaceful person.
People on both sides of this argument have made some valid points. But I also see many ad homimen attacks and outright racism and religious bigotry. Amazing, I will single you out for your towel-head remarks because, -- understandably after the 11th of September were all, to say the least, upset --Ive seen comments like these from you several times over the last year. But it doesnt excuse such remarks. I dont see similar comments about Christians, who committed the largest terrorist attack on the US up till the September 11. I know , from personal experience, you to be a kind and generous man. Such comments are beneath you.
Let me say the United States of America is one of the best places on the planet to live. We enjoy opportunities and a standard of living not found in most of the world. We have material wealth, freedoms, beautiful and varied landscapes and good people. We are not alone in much of this apart from the opportunities available here to rise above your beginnings and achieve for oneself a better station in life.
But the point that proplog2 is making seems to be falling, for the most part, on deaf ears. Our country has committed some well-documented atrocities over our history. We shouldnt ignore this. To do so risks repeating these mistakes.We have supported and installed some of the most horrible and repressive leader s and governments the world has ever known. This is not propaganda. They are not simply mistakes. These are not isolated incidents. Many hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions have died, and many millions have suffered under these regimes. By supporting and maintaining such regimes, we are complicit in the crimes perpetrated. Please dont take my word for it, I challenge you to investigate our role in some of these:
The planning and execution, by Henry Kissinger and the CIA, of the overthrow, by Agosto Pinochet, of the democratically elected leader of Chile, Salvador Allende (another September 11). There is a movement to have Kissinger tried for war crimes.
Our participation in the overthrow of the democratically elected leader of Guatemala, Arbenz.
Our involvement in the civil war, for which we were convicted by the World Court, in Nicaragua. Also Iran-Contra.
Our support for the repressive military dictatorships in South America of Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay and Chile.
Our support of Suddharto of Indonesia while his government was massacring the people of East Timor.
The list goes on, but this should suffice to begin with. I have traveled to some of these places. I have friends and family from some of these places. Many have suffered terribly. Apart form the repression of their governments, they have lost family members, spent time in jail or have had to flee their country. The populations of these countries are very well aware of our role there, even if, for the most part, the majority of Americans are not.
What most amazes me is the lack of hatred and animosity I have found. While there is much resentment towards our government and some isolated incidents of general anti-Americanism, these people can make the distinction between a countrys government and its people, between centers of power and non-participants. Many of these people would like to come to the US to enjoy the good life we have, in spite of what we have done to their county and the personal price they may have paid. They recognize the opportunities and the good aspects of the US.
Our intentions may have been for the best (although I dont believe thats true quite often), but what damage have we done, what price have innocents paid and how many times has our involvement come back to bite us in the ass? How many of our own have paid a personal price or died? What price have we paid as a people, as a nation?
While being good and having done much good, we have our dark side as well. We need to be aware of this and keep it in mind if we are to progress.
CPiolo
P.S. I would also like to suggest reading the foreign press, in another language if possible. They, apart from giving one a different perspective, whether you agree with or not, have broken some important stories (see the BBCs Greg Palasts coverage of Florida poll abuses in the 2000 presidential election: http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=30&row=1), and often cover stories that little or no coverage here at home.
Edited for formatting.
Edited by - CPiolo on 12 November 2002 15:4:16
Wow,
I havnt read this much bullshit in a thread for quite some time.
All of those here who live in the U.S. and do not like it are free to travel to China or any other country of their choice. LEAVE. No one will block you from leaving. No guards will try to shoot you when you cross the border. LEAVE. There are millions if not BILLIONS of people who would love to take your place because they know FIRSTHAND what a fucked up country is. LEAVE.
I find it amusing that there are no listings of attrocities committed by other countries.
Well we have the modern classics of Hitler, Stalin, Japan, the current government of North Korea, China (forced abortions anyone???), and Pol Pot. We might as well include the majority of African Nations.
How about the Classics? We have the millions upon millions of chinese who died building the great wall. Spain's destruction of the central and southern native Americans. The slaves of Egypt. The Norse conquests. Roman conquests....it goes on and on and on and on.........
And this whole Pinchet thing, the bastard killed thousands of his own people and your trying to say that we where in the wrong for getting rid of his ass????? Wake up.
Maybe Stalin would have been a better leader of the 'free world'???? Good ol' Chairman Mao was a great supporter of Human Rights!!
Wake up people. You bitch and bitch about how bad the U.S. is and yet you fail to point out how the rest of the WORLD is a million times worse. IF we are so BAD why does everyone want to move here?????? Do you have any concept to how great your lives are??? Stalin and Mao would have you shot for posting anti-govt material. IN Africa you probably wouldnt have any arms so you couldnt type if you wanted to. Thats if you hadnt starved to death by the time you turned your P.C. on (provided you even had power).
WAKE UP.
And how many of you bitching fools even voted?????
O.K. Crazy151drinker Ill bite.
All of those here who live in the U.S. and do not like it are free to travel to China or any other country of their choice. LEAVE. No one will block you from leaving. No guards will try to shoot you when you cross the border. LEAVE. There are millions if not BILLIONS of people who would love to take your place because they know FIRSTHAND what a fucked up country is. LEAVE.
Your response is typical anyone who criticizes their own country or government should just up and leave. How would you suggest one go about improving things without criticism? How does one avoid repeating past mistakes if one forgets or ignores those made in the past? How does one enjoy the freedom to express ones opinion if that opinion must always be in accord with ones government?
I pointed out that while we have many problems and havent always demonstrated much morality in our foreign affairs, we have a great country. I also pointed out that many whove been subjected to some of our immoral acts and policies would still jump at the opportunity to live in the US. If those who disagreed with a governments policies just shut up or left, there would be no US of A, wed still be an obedient British colony toeing the line and behaving like good little subjects.
I find it amusing that there are no listings of attrocities committed by other countries.
I dont believe anyone doubts that other countries have committed atrocities. But the subject of this thread is the US, not other countries. Moreover, when one goes about regime changing or invading other countries because of their moral deficiencies, it leaves one open to criticism on the same grounds. Its one way to point out the hypocrisy occurring.
Well we have the modern classics of Hitler, Stalin, Japan, the current government of North Korea, China (forced abortions anyone???), and Pol Pot. We might as well include the majority of African NationsHow about the Classics? We have the millions upon millions of chinese who died building the great wall. Spain's destruction of the central and southern native Americans. The slaves of Egypt. The Norse conquests. Roman conquests....it goes on and on and on and on......... .
I see, two or more wrongs make a right. Again, the US was the focus of this thread.
You should also read some history.
Pol Pot came into power after we had bombed Cambodia. We helped create the situation in which Pol Pot was able to commit his atrocities.
The Spanish werent the only ones killing off and subjugating the native populations of the Americas. All the colonial European powers (Britain, France, Spain, Holland and Portugal), as well as the US did the same.
And this whole Pinchet thing, the bastard killed thousands of his own people and your trying to say that we where in the wrong for getting rid of his ass????? Wake up.
Youre absolutely correct that Pinochet was a bastard, a bastard we installed after plotting and assisting in the Coup d Etat that overthrew the democratically elected president of Chile. This occurred September 11, 1973. See here for more info: http://www.lakota.clara.net/Library/garzon.html
Maybe Stalin would have been a better leader of the 'free world'???? Good ol' Chairman Mao was a great supporter of Human Rights!!
Red herring. No one suggested such nonsense.
Wake up people. You bitch and bitch about how bad the U.S. is and yet you fail to point out how the rest of the WORLD is a million times worse. IF we are so BAD why does everyone want to move here?????? Do you have any concept to how great your lives are??? Stalin and Mao would have you shot for posting anti-govt material. IN Africa you probably wouldnt have any arms so you couldnt type if you wanted to. Thats if you hadnt starved to death by the time you turned your P.C. on (provided you even had power).WAKE UP.
And how many of you bitching fools even voted?????
More red herrings. Yes I voted. Its one way to express my agreement/disagreement/opinion. Im thankful I have that opportunity and the opportunity to express my disagreement or dissatisfaction with the government. Just cause people want to move here doesnt mean we dont have problems or work to do. I vote for expressing ones opinion rather than complacent going with the flow.
Cheers,
CPiolo
One major point everyone keeps missing.
Here, in the US, we have the right, if not the responsibility at times, to speak out against out elected officials and depose them if need be, without fear of retribution or an armed insurrection.
We can republish our history and admit to past horrors and make strides to ensure they never happen again.
America isn't perfect, nor will it ever be. No country or government is. Currently, we are the strongest nation because we have to freedom to be strong. In spite of our strength, the only nations that need fear any reprisals from us are the ones trying deny freedoms to their people or their neighbors.
Still, we have our black marks too, but they do go hidden away. They are openly admitted to and dealt with. What other nations openly admit to their errors and past horrible mistakes? Very few.
You can bash us until you are blue in the face. When help is needed, you can also count on Americans running to your aid, regardless of how you were bashing us before.
America isn't perfect and it still has things that need to be dealt with and grow, but even after visiting many other countries, it made me appreciate what I have right here even more.
Lew W
