Belief is Absurd

by IronGland 22 Replies latest jw friends

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  IronGland

  I am beginning to wonder if there is some kind of physical brain wiring that makes some people more likely to accept religion, even when believing in a certain supernatural paradigm presents numerous absurdities. Christians seem to be able to convince themselves of the following:

  1.) The God described in the Bible is real, yet the god(s) of other religions are not (a variation: other religions are Satanic deceptions)
  2.) In order to escape eternal punishment-whether it be fire and brimstone or "separation from God"-a person must do some sort of mental / verbal ritual in which Jesus is invited to guide a person's life, decisions, and offer constant companionship

  To me, for whatever reason, the above assertions seem utterly devoid of substance. I have conversed with all shades of Christians from Mormons to Catholics, with Muslims, with Buddhists, and with Hindus. Guess what? The members of all the religions mentioned believe that THEIR religion is the correct one. It drives me nuts when Christians insist that adherents of all other faiths are either mistaken or misguided by Satan. (Other religions make similar statements, but Christians are who I seem to encounter most often.)

  In debates I have had with Christians, none of them have been able to give me a satisfactory answer as to why they are so SURE that Christianity is correct. The person I am arguing with generally will resort to saying that they know they are right because they can feel it. While I don't wish to disrespect anyone's feelings, I can't possibly take a strong conviction as tantamount to evidence. If I am to believe staunch Christians, why must I then reject the claims of staunch Jews, Hindus, or Muslims?

  I have read numerous apologetics' works, articles, and essays. I have read papers that claim that there is scientific proof of the validity of Christianity, Islam, etc. I don't see how anyone who knows of the existence of other faiths besides their own can apply logical criticism to other religions but not to their own. What I have written probably makes sense to other atheists/agnostics out there, but any Christians who read this are probably thinking that I've got it all wrong, that if I only invited Jesus into my heart and committed myself to serving God's kingdom I'd realize the truth through faith.

  Edited by - Irongland on 8 November 2002 19:51:25
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  JT

  for the most part belief systems are the result of where you are born- now how is that for getting in the wrong belief system
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  Mulan

  I have wondered the same thing. I do extensive genealogy research and have learned that many of my ancestors were involved in radical religions, from Quakers to militant Congregationalists. Ministers abound in every generation. I think I was doomed.
• 

  Satanus

  Here is an explanation based on inherited brain chemistry types.

  Paranormal beliefs linked to brain chemistry

  19:00 24 July 02

  Whether or not you believe in the paranormal may depend entirely on your brain chemistry. People with high levels of dopamine are more likely to find significance in coincidences, and pick out meaning and patterns where there are none. (Photo: Photonica) Peter Brugger, a neurologist from the University Hospital in Zurich, Switzerland, has suggested before that people who believe in the paranormal often seem to be more willing to see patterns or relationships between events where sceptics perceive nothing. To find out what could be triggering these thoughts, Brugger persuaded 20 self-confessed believers and 20 sceptics to take part in an experiment. Brugger and his colleagues asked the two groups to distinguish real faces from scrambled faces as the images were flashed up briefly on a screen. The volunteers then did a similar task, this time identifying real words from made-up ones. Seeing and believing Believers were much more likely than sceptics to see a word or face when there was not one, Brugger revealed last week at a meeting of the Federation of European Neuroscience Societies in Paris. However, sceptics were more likely to miss real faces and words when they appeared on the screen. The researchers then gave the volunteers a drug called L-dopa, which is usually used to relieve the symptoms of Parkinson's disease by increasing levels of dopamine in the brain. Both groups made more mistakes under the influence of the drug, but the sceptics became more likely to interpret scrambled words or faces as the real thing. That suggests that paranormal thoughts are associated with high levels of dopamine in the brain, and the L-dopa makes sceptics less sceptical. "Dopamine seems to help people see patterns," says Brugger. Plateau effect However, the single dose of the drug did not seem to increase the tendency of believers to see coincidences or relationships between the words and images. That could mean that there is a plateau effect for them, with more dopamine having relatively little effect above a certain threshold, says Peter Krummenacher, one of Brugger's colleagues. Dopamine is an important chemical involved in the brain's reward and motivation system, and in addiction. Its role in the reward system may be to help us decide whether information is relevant or irrelevant, says Franoise Schenk from the University of Lausanne in Switzerland. From http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=33011&site=3 SS
• 

  Double Edge

  If I am to believe staunch Christians, why must I then reject the claims of staunch Jews, Hindus, or Muslims?

  Why accept or reject anything?

  You state 'Belief is Absurd'... we'll I'm sure it is to you, because you can only answer to your own life experiences just as others answer to theirs. To me, Belief/Faith/Hope (whatever) is profound, but then that is what my experiences have taught me.

  So...maybe the question really isn't "What is the true religion?" but rather "What truth is found in a religion?" The obvious answer that all profess is a firm belief in an all-powerfull Creator and mankind's relationship with Him.... after that, the various details become diverse. IMHO that was part of our Creator's plan... the diversity of belief...there's a lot of energy spent on this one subject. Think of all the time spent trying to figure out who's right, how do we get to know the true God, what's His plan for me, etc., etc. ... running waters are life giving and are a creative force, on the other hand stagnate waters are 'death' and do nothing, just what I believe would happen if there were only ONE 'true' religion. Mankind would have nothing to 'seek' and IMO become spiritually stagnate during this journey of life. (At least it keeps this and numerous other boards popping)..

  just my 2 cents late on a friday nite....... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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  Zechariah

  SS,

  Whether or not you believe in the paranormal may depend entirely on your brain chemistry. People with high levels of dopamine are more likely to find significance in coincidences, and pick out meaning and patterns where there are none.

  Very informative information and entirely understandable. Unbelievers are inherently mistrustful. They are very guarded against seeing things that they believe are not there.

  This is primarily for the reason they are physical men who only can accept what the physical senses can detect. They do not recognize the existence of unseen things and as a result will never with the eyes of fath be able to perceive them.

  In the study you spoke of the mistrust and fear of unbelievers to see things they believe are not there makes them also prone to miss things they have seen but do not trust their own eyes. They have no trust of their spiritual instinct and as a result they never develop psychic abilities because the don't believe such abilities exist.

  The introduction of dopamine or perhaps any drug or alcohol that relaxes the mind and reducing the barrier to trust unbelievers naturally have.

  It is certain that believers will see more patterns than unbelievers because they trust their psychic selves something unbelievers have no knowledge of. The patterns believers see that was not designed by the programmer is still valid for the believer. That pattern from his own perspective is really there and should not be discounted especially if he uniquely is affected by it.

  I would imagine for a unbeliever that his times of greatest belief is when he is high. Doped (dopamine). They let their guard down. Am I right?

  Man is a spirit (psychic) being physically embodied. Man is a spirit son of God. His awareness of that fact only by faith (willingness to believe) is the key to receive our inheritance of spiritual gifts from our heavenly father.

  Zechariah
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  Double Edge

  Well said Zechariah.
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  searcher

  So in the 60's they got it right ?

  Drugs are the way to see god ?

  searcher.
• 

  CoolBreeze

  After my head on collision with WatchTower doctrine I was a staunch atheist until I consumed some psychadelics in the high desert of California.

  I was camping alone in the desert (one of my favorite past times) when I decide I wanted to see what Red Rock Canyon looked like under the influence of 100ug of LSD. I swallowed two gelcaps of what I thought was 50ug each of LSD, but later turned out out to 150ug each. Needless to say instead of the mild visual hallucinations I was expecting I experienced something much more profound.

  What I underwent was something the Native Americans call a spirit quest. I touched the unseen world around me, and experienced the magnificent splendor of creation in it's whole. Unfortunatly I do not posess the words to describe the experience in detail, but sifice it to say it left me a changed person.

  I now firrmly believe we are all part of a greater whole. I am no longer an atheist, because I have touched the face of God. The God I beleive in is not one of the mythological gods of orginized religion, rather the personal God that each of us must come to in our own way. I believe each of us must find our own path to devine, and there is no ONE path.

  Ok, enough of my rambling ... you may now proceed with your regularly scheduled flame wars.

  Anton.
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  Farkel

  Anton,

  : I was camping alone in the desert (one of my favorite past times) when I decide I wanted to see what Red Rock Canyon looked like under the influence of 100ug of LSD. I

  I spent many days in Red Rock Canyon in the high California desert. Except I was a dub and a dirt-bike rider, to boot. I rode thorugh mountains of flowers in the spring across the desert floor and smelled their fragrance while I was destroying them. I rode in the snow in the winter and realized that my klnd of dirt-bike was not equipped for that type of weather. I never got stoned in all those trips. All of us just drank and most of us acted stupid. The Watchtower told us we couldn't get high on anything but booze, so like the solidiers we were, we just used booze to take whatever pain away that we needed to take away.

  I've been all over Mono Lake and all the local environs in that area. This was in circa 1970 or so. I loved the high desert and spent many, many weekends there. I was what they called in dirt-bike speak a "hot shoe." I know this because I told people to say this or I would kill them.

  How about Lake Isabela? Ever been there?

  Farkel

  Edited by - Farkel on 9 November 2002 2:35:17