Is the two-witness rule really unreasonable?

by stillin 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Watchtower-Free
    Watchtower-Free

    The Hypocrisy of Jehovah’s Witnesses “Discerning” if a Woman Has Been Raped, But Demanding Two Witnesses to Child Molestation

    As I bring out in this post, Jehovah’s Witness elders are given instruction to “use discernment” if a woman makes a claim of being raped, based on her “mental disposition, circumstances leading up to the incident, and any delay in reporting.” It’s vital that people understand the gravity of these instructions, as elders who “discern” that a woman has not been raped and has committed fornication have absolute authority to disfellowship her, which involves complete and total shunning from the congregation and her own family. You can imagine how devastating this would be for a woman who has suffered such a horrific and brutal crime, now having to face the further punishment of being cut off from her friends and family.

    In this post I note how Jehovah’s Witnesses demand “two witnesses” when it comes to accusations of child molestation in their congregations. There needs to be another witness to the crime or a second victim in order for them to remove the person from the congregation and warn other parents. They base this on 1 Timothy 5:19, which says, “Do not accept an accusation against an older man except on the evidence of two or three witnesses,” and Matthew 18:16, which says in part, “so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.”

    This too is absolutely devastating for children, as there is rarely if ever a second witness to child molestation. This is a crime committed in secret and in many cases, involves molestation of children in their own home. Accusations without a second witness are also typically covered up and kept quiet so that parents do not know an accused child molester is sitting right next to them in their own congregation. Jehovah’s Witnesses are now facing many lawsuits from children who have been molested by men in their congregations because of this staunch “two witness” rule.

    The Hypocrisy

    The hypocrisy of these two situations is obvious; Jehovah’s Witnesses demand two witnesses to the crime of child molestation, but don’t demand two witnesses to decide that a woman has committed fornication versus having been raped. If elders are going to disfellowship a woman for fornication without her actually confessing to fornication, shouldn’t they need two witnesses to that sin? They should need someone who saw the woman willingly go into a man’s home after being out with him all night, or a witness who heard the woman confess that she lied to the elders when she said she was raped, or a witness to the actual sexual encounter itself.

    Instead, they base their decision on some vague instructions about her “mental disposition,” if she delayed reporting the incident, and the circumstances surrounding the incident, or in other words, on their own opinions alone. However, they don’t “discern” if a man has molested children based on his “mental disposition” when accused of the crime, or any “circumstances” leading up to or surrounding the accused crime. They decide for themselves and all by themselves that a woman has committed fornication without any real proof or credible evidence and without “two witnesses,” but won’t decide that a man has molested a child with anything less than that second witness.

    I don’t know to whom this is more insulting, the children who have credible accusations of being molested or the women who are told that it’s been decided that their rape was actually fornication, and who are then punished and shunned by everyone.

    Further Hypocrisy

    To further demonstrate their hypocrisy in this matter, recently some top-secret “elder training” videos were leaked online; I’ll be commenting on them in another post but you can view them onthis site. The first videos show the scenario of a young man, “Robbie,” confessing to fornication and getting a girl pregnant. The elders need to decide if Robbie should be disfellowshipped, and late in the video they determine that they don’t think Robbie, despite his tears and confession, is remorseful. They say that he isn’t concerned enough about how he’s violated Jehovah’s law and doesn’t seem cut to the heart.

    It’s also noteworthy that in the video, one elder points out that Robbie says the girl contacted him “a few weeks” after their sexual encounter and told him she was pregnant, but the elder says that’s not possible since she wouldn’t know she’s pregnant until “six weeks” after having sex. The ignorance of this statement is blinding; this is not the 1800s where women needed to rely on a calendar to find out they’re pregnant; a doctor’s blood test can tell you that you’re pregnant within days of conceiving. The “six weeks” formula also works only if a woman has sex the day after her last period, then waits four weeks for her next period, then waits another two weeks after her period is late to start putting the pieces together. What if she had sex with Robbie on Friday the 1st, and was expecting her period the next Friday, the 8th? She might wait another few days after the 8th to become suspicious, but a pregnancy test at that time could confirm her condition, and yes it would then be “a few weeks” after their sexual encounter.

    My point is not to give a lesson in female anatomy; my point is that the elders “discern” that Robbie isn’t repentant based on gross ignorance of conception. Apparently they’re also ignorant of at-home pregnancy tests and how soon a woman can use one accurately. However, rather than finding out those facts or even trying to confirm Robbie’s statement with the girl herself, they simply decide among themselves that he’s lying.

    In Robbie’s case, as in the case of a woman claiming to be raped, they don’t use “two witnesses” to determine that a serious sin has been committed but instead, feel that they can make that decision on their own. In the elders’ video, they “discern” not just the truthfulness of Robbie’s word but also his own heart condition! Yet, despite this, they feel they have no place “discerning” if a child has been raped no matter the credibility of that child’s statements, no matter the reaction of the accused, no matter anything else but those needed “two witnesses.”

    I would ask Jehovah’s Witnesses why they have this double standard when it comes to child molestation versus so-called fornication committed by adults in other situations. Either the “two witness” rule should be applied equally to everyone, or it should be applied to no one. Remember too that a rape victim and men like Robbie are not a danger to anyone in the congregation the way child molesters are, so it would seem they should be given the extra consideration, if you’re going to give preference to any group. However, if you won’t disfellowship men accused of pedophilia based on your own “discernment,” what gives you the right to disfellowship men and women accused of fornication based on that same so-called “discernment”? Why are you so bold so as to disfellowship one group, but hide behind this “two witness” rule when you need to protect children from another group?

    Do you think you might owe an apology to those children, to rape victims, and to poor blubbering Robbie?

    http://jwvictims.org/2014/02/15/the-hypocrisy-of-jehovahs-witnesses-discerning-if-a-woman-has-been-raped-but-demanding-two-witnesses-to-child-molestation/

  • John Aquila
    John Aquila
    CalebInFloroda
    The New Testament makes it very clear that Gentile Christians are NOT obligated to observe the Mosaic Law or meet any of its demands as a requisite for salvation.

    They are just a bunch of idiots. I just didn't know how idiotic they were, especially since they don't really want to put forth the effort to learn what the Bible really teaches.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    I'm amazed an adult with intelligence is asking this.

  • GodZoo
    GodZoo
    Watchtower-Free
    There needs to be another witness to the crime or a second victim in order for them to remove the person from the congregation and warn other parents.

    Er.. they actually don't ever warn other parents even if the molester confesses or is found completely guilty.

  • brandnew
    brandnew

    BYPASS ALL ELDERS.....GO STRAIGHT TO POLICE.

    thats it.

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    They can instantly change this situation with just one letter, or article,

    The WTBT$ is first of all a corporation that was founded on 19th century foolishness. There is only so much that can be changed without losing everything.

    It's image and it's assurance that it is the truth........ that their god Jehovah is actually in step with the WTBTS is the glue for the gullible that allows it to function as a religion,have followers and collect donations. It must represent it's rightness even when wrong.

    It doesn't understand anything about child abuse other then to cover it up. It has institutionalize the Elders but has failed to train them in matter's like Child abuse.

    Hiding a wrong doing from the public and it's own members is their first go to tactic. Delay, misdirect, misinform is the operational approach.

    However when it comes to honesty the times and modern communication is catching up to many religions, associations and corporations in exposing the wrong and the harm.

  • StephaneLaliberte
    StephaneLaliberte

    I have known a kid who has been coerced by her mother to report abuse by her father. Though the father was not fellowshiped, he did loose his privileges on the grounds that he could not preside over his own family. In the meantime, an anonymous call was made to child services and they asked that the father move out of his own house until they figure it out. In time, Child services found that there were holes in the kid's story and let the father move back in.

    Later, once an adult, the kid finally admitted that she had been coerced and that she made up the stories.
    The reality is that false testimonies do happen. Still, the two witness rule is not flexible enough. For the very least, abuse claims should be reported to the police. Then, under agreement from the victim, the law and the elders should work hand in hand and handle cases properly. The two witness rule could still be applied for disfellowshiping, however, unless the perpetrator is cleared by the police, he should loose all his privileges and never allowed to be alone with kids.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    Is the two-witness rule really unreasonable?

    Please view Day 3, Part 1 of the Royal Commission, posted by C0ntr013r, if you haven't done so already. Thank you.

  • wwjdnwt
    wwjdnwt

    I find it interesting that on the JW.org website they don't put any of this in their news. Why not? They put everything else that puts them in a "good light". But be fair, be honest let their members see all that is going on in their WTBTS. They have really programmed their members to think that anything that is said against them is of Satan and that they are being persecuted. With that kind of mind thought they can get away with pretty much anything . They point the finger at the Catholic Church as a big huge false religion but they really need to take the huge tree out of their own eyes before trying to take the splinter out of someone else. The Catholic Church has a pope , the WTBTS has the GB. What is the difference? JW's don't even have Jesus as their Mediator to God.(only the 144,000) How exactly does that work I cant figure out.

    As for the question about 2 person rule. That is exactly why it should be reported. How foolish is it to think that there will be witness to horrible acts against children. You know the JW's have a habit IMO of taking a scripture that seems to be very simple and plain and saying...oh no , that is not what it means..It means this..Why can't they take this scripture that they refer to and give it the proper perspective. I think that rule is meant for other things perhaps. But surely not abuse of children. Use common sense I would say.


    Anyway..Just my thoughts for today! God Bless.

  • JWdaughter
    JWdaughter
    There is no perfect justice in our system of justice, but it's a darn sight better than a bunch of untrained yahoos playing at being police, investigators, jurors, judges and appellate courts . All at once.

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