please help

by jiutman 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  jiutman

  I will be talking with a JW soon about the trinity. She tells me that she can use any translation to disprove the trinity and that Jesus is not Divine. I feel good about talking to her but i would love to know their plan. What verses do they use? What order? How do they explain those verses? How can i best respond. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
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  WTinfiltrated

  You have not to answer immediatly. Just take notes about the verses she is going to use

  and refer me. She will be happy to know you need time to make <<researches>>.

  WTinfiltrated
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  I will post lots of info here to help you later tonight or tomorrow.
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  Navigator

  Juitman

  I wouldn't waste a lot of time trying to defend the Trinity doctrine. You can ask 10 people to define it and get 10 different answers. The scriptural basis is shakey at best. You have to ask yourself, "Is this(understanding the doctrine) going to affect my spiritual connection with my Creator?" Probably not. The only reason the JW wants to discuss it is to show that your church and beliefs are wrong. That doesn't mean that they are right. Ask them to provide the scriptual basis from shunning family members, destroying families, and judging others. They will quote out of context and, like the Pharasees, focus on the letter rather than the spirit of the law. THEY ARE A MIND CONTROL CULT, FIRST LAST AND ALWAYS!
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  jiutman

  Nav,

  I understand that. i want know what path she is going to take so that i can be prepared. I want to be able to switch the conversation onto the WT so i can show the failings of the organization. Any thoughts?
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  thinker

  Hi Juitman,

  Have them bring their Kingdom Interlinear translation of the Greek Scriptures. Look up 1John 5:7-8. Then ask them to read the literal translation (from their own experts) vs. the NWT.

  NWT: "For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement."

  Kingdom Interlinear: ""Because three are the (ones) bearing witness, the spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three into the one (thing) are."

  Edited by - thinker on 29 October 2002 20:16:25
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  hooberus

  When discussing the trinity realise:

  1. The Watchtower has so grossly mis-represented the doctrine that the average witness thinks that you are trying to prove to them that there are "three Gods" and that "Jesus is the same person as the Father" therefore you get all kinds of strange responses from the "witness" like quoting Psalm 83:18 as if this disproves the trinity, and straw-man questions like "Did Jesus pray to himself." Since the average witness doesn't even know what the doctrine teaches and may not even listed to your explanation before "refuting" it from the scriptures you are normally being counter-productive by starting out with it. Once I spent about an hour with a witness friend of mine. I didn't even really try to defend the Trinity doctrine from the Bible. I simply tried to explain to him that the trinity doctrine doesn't teach "three Gods" . After an hour of slow, calm, and careful explanation he STILL believed that the trinity doctrine was "three Gods in one person"

  2. If you are going to use the Bible start with what the apostles were witnesses of in the book of acts: THE RESURRECTION. Let me know if you want the verses to use. The Watchtower teaches that Jesus's body was "disposed of" If the "witness" can't get a relatively simple doctrine like Jesus's resurrection, there is probably no use in discussing a much more complicated doctrine like the Trinity which the Watchtower has misrepresented, misquoted, and misapplied a whole plethora of scriptures to the point where the average witness will blindy chase straw-man arguments all day long.

  3. Be carefull about attacking the Watchtower oganization at first as the witness will feel personally attacked.

  I would recommend using questions to open the witness mind which I will post tomorrow. if you are going to use the Bible start with acts 4:33 and proceed to witness the resurrection of Christ. Be encouraged your work is not in vain.

  Edited by - hooberus on 29 October 2002 20:25:3
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  A Paduan

  She has been given the free will to choose what she believes - there are no "proofs" that she can show you - it's only her chosen interpretation - that is her God given right, as it is yours.

  Her arguments though, may be

  • it's not in the bible (but that depends on what you hear when you read it - text - or spirit)
  • early church fathers did not believe it (really, depends on your quotes, they may have only figured it when pressured)
  • pagan origins (that a ridiculous argument, pagans ate food too - should we stop that?)
  • early church apostacised (who said that they would all apostacise - jws?)
  • trinity is three gods (no, One God - jws don't deny the worship of more than one god - see the 'other' god Jesus)
  • trinity is illogical/confusing (perhaps it is to jws, and many others)

  There is no "proof" in the text for you to give her, neither for her to give you - as it is meant to be -

  "Blessed are you Simon Barjona for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you"

  paduan

  Edited by - a paduan on 30 October 2002 4:34:23
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  The Watchtower Society perverts and corrupts the Trinity Doctrine.

  I've noticed in Watchtower Publications, first, they will give the correct Doctrine of the Trinity, which is:

  Three Separate Persons (The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) who are in Unity as One God, all Three having the Nature and Essence of God.

  All Three Persons are Co-Eternal, Co-Omniscient, Co-Omnipotent, Co-Almighty.

  However, then the Watchtower will say things like The Trinity Doctrine teaches that there are Three Separate Gods.

  Then, the Watchtower will say things like How could Jesus pray to the Father since Jesus and the Father are the Same Person.

  The Watchtower also says things like, The Trinity is a Three-Headed Freakish God.

  The Watchtower does this intentionally to confuse the hell out of people, and they do a good job at that.

  In the Scriptures, it seems clear to me that the fact that Jesus Christ is fully God and equal to the Father is a very important teaching.

  It is a little harder to prove that the Holy Spirit is God, however, the Bible makes it pretty obvious that Christ is fully Deity and Divine.

  The Watchtower has intentionally corrupted their Bible "Translation", the New World Translation.

  They have altered just about every Verse in their Bible that showed that Christ was Deity.

  Here are some things the Watchtower says to try and refute the Trinity:

  Watchtower Statement: The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, therefore it is not a Biblical Teaching.

  My response: The word "Bible" is not in the Bible, the word "Organization" is not in the Bible, the word "Theocratic" is not in the Bible, the words "Governing Body" are not in the Bible, the word "Class" is not in the Bible. The phrase "Kingdom Hall" is not in the Bible. So, that is a pretty lame arguement they try to use.

  Watchtower Statement: The Trinity is Pagan because several Pagans and False Religions believe in Triads (Three Gods).

  My response: Interesting statement, because the Watchtower says things a little differently about The Flood of Noah's Time. The Watchtower teaches that since Pagans and others have legends and stories about a Worldwide Flood, then that is proof that it really happened. So, since Pagans believe in Triad Gods, the Trinity must be Pagan, but since the Pagans believe that a Worldwide Flood happened, it must be True!

  Watchtower Statement: The Trinity is a Mystery and is too confusing and beyond human understanding, hence, it can't be True.

  My response: Well, the Watchtower also says that God always existing for Eternity is beyond human understanding. The Bible teaches that man cannot understand or comprehend everything about God.

  Watchtower Statement: How could Jesus pray to the Father since Jesus and the Father are the Same Person?

  My response: That is NOT what the Trinity Doctrine teaches. The Trinity Doctrine teaches that The Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all SEPARATE PERSONS. So, Jesus was praying to the Father.

  Watchtower Statement: How could Jesus have resurrected Himself since Jesus and the Father are the Same Person?

  My response: See my response to the Prayer Statement directly above.

  Watchtower Statement: Jesus said that the Father is Greater than He is, which disproves the Trinity.

  My response: Note: Jesus said this while on Earth after He had "emptied Himself" and took on Human Flesh. Also, Jesus does willingly submit to the Father's Will. The Son is in willing subjection to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is in willing subjection to the Father and the Son. The Father is GREATER in Position, but not in Nature or Essence.

  Watchtower Statement: Jesus said that He did not know the "Day or the Hour" of His Second Coming, but only the Father knew. Jesus could not be God because God knows everything.

  My response: Note: Jesus said this while on Earth after He had "emptied Himself" and took on Human Flesh. It is possible that Jesus "blocked out" this information while on Earth. In fact, the Watchtower teaches that the Father "blocks out" certain information about the future.

  I will post more on this very shortly, including several Scriptures.

  Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 30 October 2002 1:18:4
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Here are some Links that may help you a lot:

  Official Watchtower Society Website - "Should You Believe in the Trinity" Brochure Online: http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/start.htm#_top_

  MacGregor Ministries Ex-JW Web Pages about the Trinity:

  See how the Watchtower MIS-Quoted everyone in their "Trinity" Brochure: http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/examtrin/examintrinity.html

  What does the OFFICIAL Watchtower Charter say about Worshipping Jesus? http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/wt_charter.html

  http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/trinity.html

  http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/could_jesus.html

  http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/howmanygods.html

  http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/jesus_god/jesus_is_god.html

  http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/jesus_lord.html

  http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/jws_real_jesus.html

  http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/michael_archangel.html

  http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/michael_archangel2.html

  http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/son_of_god.html

  http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/kit.html

  http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/john1_support.html

  LetUsReason.org Web Pages about JW's and the Trinity:

  http://www.letusreason.org/JW39.htm

  http://www.letusreason.org/JW38.htm

  http://www.letusreason.org/JW13.htm

  http://www.letusreason.org/JW22.htm

  http://www.letusreason.org/JW4.htm

  http://www.letusreason.org/JW7.htm

  http://www.letusreason.org/JW26.htm

  http://www.letusreason.org/JW31.htm

  More Web Pages about JW's and the Trinity:

  http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r005.html

  http://www.christiananswers.net/q-comfort/jw-jesus-god.html

  http://www.carm.org/jw/greaterlove.htm

  The Watchtower says that if you read the Bible without the Watchtower's help, you will end up believing in the Trinity and the Deity of Christ: http://www.carm.org/jw/bibletrinity.htm

  http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trujesus.htm

  http://www.carm.org/questions/jesus_pray_to.htm

  http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_know.htm

  http://www.carm.org/questions/father_greater.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/nwt_proskuneo.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/1Chron29-20.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/preparetheway.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/john1_1.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/John17_3.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/John5_30.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/john8_58.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/john8-10.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/nameofLord.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/col1_15.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/col1_16-17.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/heb1_6.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/heb1_8.htm

  http://www.carm.org/jw/jwquotesc.htm

  http://www.machynlleth.freeserve.co.uk/ron.htm

  http://www.machynlleth.freeserve.co.uk/deity.htm

  http://www.machynlleth.freeserve.co.uk/firstlast.htm

  http://www.machynlleth.freeserve.co.uk/john11.htm

  http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/rlister/jw/jwtrin.htm

  http://www.probe.org/docs/jw-trin.html

  http://www.apolresearch.org/eng/nwt2_eng.php3