by Satanus 22 Replies latest watchtower medical
this aspect of the word "imitate" that points to that which is fake!
Would you say that all acts of imitation by adults are fakenesses, and so, in the ideal state, there should be no imitation, unless it was play or performance for entertanment sake? Then again, if someone was doing an imitation of someone for the purpose of entertaning, would that not be a put down of the person being imitated?
SS
God became a man, not an imitation - let's be a god.
Edited by - a paduan on 1 October 2002 4:56:20
This brings to mind the oft wt quoted passage from paul, be imitators of me, even as i am of christ. Why would paul do things he imagined christ had done, if paul didn't have those things coming up from his core? If they were coming from his own spirit regenerated self, his new self, then he would have just been himself, no imitation involved. God, supposedly reading hearts would see that it was just an imitation. By his words, paul admits being a faker, then ecourages others to also pratice being what they are not. Hypocracy at the very germination point of christianity. What does that say about all the christian imitators down through the centuries? Although, from my readings of the saints, i think many were genuine.
Paduan, that would mean that we always were god.
SS
Would you say that all acts of imitation by adults are fakenesses, and so, in the ideal state, there should be no imitation, unless it was play or performance for entertanment sake? Then again, if someone was doing an imitation of someone for the purpose of entertaning, would that not be a put down of the person being imitated?
Actually, what I had in mind is that sense of curiosity or learning that kids have when they imitate something, it seems to me it's basically an experiment to them. To put it another way, it's exploration or discovery. It's not a matter of how old you are of course, it's whether you are approaching it with that mind set. I guess it would go back to how Jesus said you have to be like young children. There is this open attitude of seeing just what it's about, rather than having made the decision that this is the way to go and then going through the motions that's supposed to support a belief/judgement you made at a previous point in time. The child like attitude is one of "ok this is being done, so what does it do and what is it about?" The "adult" attitude is "I know what this is about, I just have to do this that and the other thing to get there" - the former is imitating a behavior in an effort to discover what function it serves, the latter assumes that they know already and goes ahead with the action thinking it will get them somewhere. The child like attitude is of course a humble one coupled with curiosity, the latter is actually a rather arrogant attitude as a certain judgement has been made already.
By his words, paul admits being a faker, then ecourages others to also pratice being what they are not. Hypocracy at the very germination point of christianity.
Paul admits being a faker - so by doing such he's not a hypocrite.
Paduan
Sharp of you to catch me in my words, but you are only playing w them. I'm sure you know what i meant, though. Can you find any place where paul openly admits that he is a fake??
SS
Edited by - saintsatan on 2 October 2002 11:26:32
In that very instance for one. He's a for real christian, but he isn't Jesus. The desire of his spirit though is to be as Christ - it is his flesh that hinders him - so he imitates with his flesh and lives according to his spirit - that his spirits' yes may be yes and his no may be no.
If he lived according to his flesh he would be bind his spirit. He prayed and didn't receive physical relief, but what his spirit really prayed for is what he received. The 'imitation' phrase is pretty much 'best not to live according to the will of your flesh'.
I think I know what your getting at, but it sounds like "because they're claiming to be the real thing then they should in a way be Christ", and I think that's some left over jw stuff - that you can be because he was just a man too.
They're the real thing in spirit, but not in flesh like Jesus, and you're spot on in 'knowing' that. Quite unlike jws may think, you just can't be that, or be that if you try and try - but by marginalising the will of the flesh you can be at peace and agreement with your soul - "avenge me of my adversary".
Paul revealed the truth in his statement - you can only 'imitate' with your flesh.
Keep thinking and unhypocritically imitating.
paduan
Edited by - a paduan on 2 October 2002 16:57:30
From the biblical theological perspectve, there is food for thought in your post.
In the following verse, the vast majority of the translations at bible gateway show paul as admitting that he lied to the corinthians, although in the context, he denies embezzling them. Together w the other verse where he admits being an imitation, it doesn't show paul in a very good light. It also makes him look concerned about his image.
2 Corinthians 12
16Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! NIV
2 Corinthians 12
16 But be that as it may, I (1) did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I (2) took you in by deceit. NASB
2 Corinthians 12
16But though granting that I did not burden you [with my support, some say that] I was crafty [and that] I cheated and got the better of you with my trickery.AMP
2 Corinthians 12
16Some of you admit I was not a burden to you. But they still think I was sneaky and took advantage of you by trickery. NLT
2 Corinthians 12
16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.KJV
2 Corinthians 12
16But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by deceit.ESV
2 Corinthians 12
16You agree that I wasn't a burden to you. Maybe that's because I was trying to catch you off guard and trick you. CEV
2 Corinthians 12
16But be that as it may, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning!NKJV
2 Corinthians 12
16 But be it so, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.KJ21
2 Corinthians 12
16 But be it so, I did not myself burden you; but, being crafty, I caught you with guile.ASV
2 Corinthians 12
16 Did I send anyone to you to get something for myself? No! WE
2 Corinthians 12
16 And be it [so], I -- I did not burden you, but being crafty, with guile I did take you;YLT
2 Corinthians 12
16 But be it so. *I* did not burden you, but being crafty I took you by guile.DARBY
I think I know what your getting at, but it sounds like "because they're claiming to be the real thing then they should in a way be Christ",
To what i was referring is the fact that the word christ means messiah. So, the word christian would mean little christ, or little messiah. If a person has the divine spirit at his core, he doesn't need an external pattern to guide him. He already has an internal one, that is now part of his being, just as the supposed jesus had. It renders moot the imitation principle. Maybe i am coming from a thought similar to what you have, maybe not. Anyway, thanks for your comments.
SS
Be it that what you point to regarding Paul is accurate, it simply verifies the truth that he isn't perfect - a known truth - nor does it impact on the inspired truth of the text.
<< So, the word christian would mean little christ, or little messiah. >> The noun is simply in reference to christ - i.e. pertaining to christ.
If a person has a 'divine spirit at his core' he still needs to subdue an unruly flesh, as men are adopted by the divine, not simply of the same 'nature' as Christ. Limited by our condition, imitation of Christ is a helpful exercise - our mentor and brother with whom we spend the rest of our time - reign with.
It has been described and spoken of as 'reigning with Him for a thousand years'.
paduan
Edited by - a paduan on 3 October 2002 4:1:3
You admit that paul was a faker and a liar, in his flesh, yet you believe that everything that he wrote with his fleshly hand in the bible is 100% true..... Ok.
