by JG 33 Replies latest jw friends
I was thinking that since most of you have experianced shunning due to disfelowshiping or disassociation, that you might have some Ideas adn scriptures to show how DF and DA shunning is unscriptural. The Elders were gracious enough to provide my wife with a packet to show how DF'ng is scriptural and GAG Loving.
Sean
" and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector "
There's your way out to be nasty, but it's always about how you hear - freedom of will is always provided for.
The truth is revealed in how you treat taxcollectors.
paduan
The REASON for shunning is what answers the question.
In 1st. Cor. 5 the case was so extreme it shocked the heathens. A man was sleeping with his stepmom........and the congregation was patting him on the back.
This was not the same as the REASONS the witnesses use to apply this scripture. THEY choose and pick what constitutes a dfing.
If a person no longer wants to be a dub and makes it known .......then how is it they apply the scripture; "Anyone who "CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER" and is a fornicater idolater etc, is to be treated this way. If you do not WANT to be called a brother.....they should not apply this scripture to you........but they do.
'Butter wouldn't melt in my mouth' around a tax collector!
Great post. I hope we hear lotsa rational thought and scripture on this one. I've been disfed for over 20 yrs for apostasy. All my family are jws - so you can imagine how much fun it's been!!! Having scriptures would be somewhat pointless for me because THEY DON'T TALK TO ME - AND ESPECIALLY IF I WANT TO DISCUSS THEIR CRACK POT BELIEFS. But I like to improve my mind (unlike them) and would like to see the counter arguments for what I basically feel is a most unkind, ungodly passtime.
Marilyn
May you all have peace!
Please know that disfellowshipping... or 'expelling from the synagogue'... was a "Pharisaical" teaching of Paul, for which he was reproved by the 12... and NOT a teaching of my Lord.
Paul said: "Remove the wicked man..."
My Lord said: "Go releasing and you will be released..."
Paul said: "Neither... [these nor those] will inherit the kingdom..."
My Lord said: "It is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of the heavens... [yet] with GOD... ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE..."
In speaking as he did, Paul went 'beyond' the things taught by my Lord, in that he made sin of the flesh "unforgiveable." Yet, my Lord said that ANYTHING done against him would be forgiven and that ONLY blasphemy against holy spirit would... could... not.
You, then, must choose whom YOU will listen to: Paul and 'earthling man' who follows Paul, rather than the One who BOUGHT them with HIS own blood... in whom you were told not to put your trust... OR... the Son of God, His Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... of whom my Father, the Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies... said: "THIS is my son; listen... to HIM."
And YOU, then, must choose WHAT you will follow: the traditions and doctrines of men... or the footsteps of the One whom we must follow... CLOSELY.
Ask yourself... and ask your elders to ask themselves: who among sinful man did my Lord judge... and/or condemn? Which sinner? Which prostitute? Which drunkard? Which fornicator, idolator, thief, or extortioner? Did he condemn Mary the Magdalene, a prostitute? Zacchaeus, an extortioner? David, an adulterer and murderer?
My Lord judged no one... and condemned only those who judged themselves... the SCRIBES AND PHARISEES... who, by their OWN mouths condemned themselves with their self-righteous believe that they SAW, when in fact they were BLIND... who considered themselves FREE... when in fact they were enslaved and sought always to enslave others... those who considered themselves SONS the kingdom, but in fact they went around "shutting up the kingdom of the heavens before men."
Tell your elders that they are NOT with sight, nor have they "acquired riches," but that they are, in FACT, naked, blind, miserable and pitiable... because rather than buying eyesalve from the One who 'sells' it... so that they MIGHT see... they have 'bought riches' from MEN... and sought the glory of MEN... moreso than the glory of God... which glory in borne out in KEEPING the LAW... NOT the Law Covenant which binds and burdens men so that they are condemned to death by reason of not keeping one then trangressing all... but the Law of the NEW Covenant... which law in borne out by LOVE... of God, neighbor, brother... and even... one's enemies. It is by THIS love... that one can be found PERFECT and PROVEN to be a son... of God... love of one's ENEMIES... that one PROVES oneself to be 'perfect'. For he that hates his brother is a child of the Devil... and he that hates his enemy, who may BE his brother... cannot be loving God.
Matthew 5:43-48
Tell your elders that... sadly... they have been misled and it is entirely their choice as to whether they wish to continue BEING misled.
I, myself, have spoken to you in TRUTH... as I received it FROM the Truth (John 14:6).
I am... your servant (as a I am servant to all those of the Household of God, Israel, and all those that go with them)... and a TRUE slave of Christ, by means of a TRUE anointing with the 'water of life', the spirit of God, HOLY SPIRIT... which the leaders of the WTBTS do not now have... nor have ever had,
SJ
I'm not sure about the scriptural viewpoint on this topic and how to disprove the JW's viewpoint.
However, have any of you ever thought about the fact that Jesus was an apostate (according to JW viewpoint)? He would have been DF'd for exposing the religious leaders of his day and telling others of their injustices to people..
The witnesses like living in their own little world and feel threatened by any who question that world. Those of us that question things threaten their security and they get stressed out. Rather than look and deal with the stress of questioning their beliefs, it's easier to get rid of the one questioning via (DF or DA).
I was a JW for 36+ years before I started questioning and thinking for myself. Whether the DFing belief is scriptural or not I don't care (not sure I even believe the Bible). The fact that it seperates families and causes pain makes me question whether it could be from God. After the things I've been through I don't even know at this point if God exsists. But if he does I as a parent keep thinking of a loving parent. I know I would not punish my daughter forever for anything she does wrong. I feel you have to look at the heart of the person to see truly. For example my brother is Gay. He was molested by a BROTHER (ELDER) who was studying with him. Did my brothers past experiences have something to do with his choices. I think so! He's DA'd and the elder that did it is still an Elder. Now back to my point. My brother is the best person you can be around. He is loving, kind, giving, funny, and a great person. Does his being GAY make him bad or evil? In my opinion...{{{{{{NO}}}}}}}} and I feel that a loving father or mother would have empathy or understanding for WHATEVER their children were going through and look at the circumstances. Now to clarify for some. I'm not condoning GROSS EVIL or WICKEDNESS. I just feel that as humans some of us make mistakes or make choices based on our history or events that take place in our lives and should not be shunned by a religion that is narrow minded, hard hearted and shallow. Only GOD can read the hearts! (if he exsists?) As you can see I'm still struggling w/religion post JW.
Sorry to go on forever but felt like I needed to respond.
Lady Marianne
Good Post "AGuest", however, I disagree about Paul.
You are correct that we should follow Jesus Christ OVER ANYONE ELSE, including the Apostles.
I believe that Paul was talking about people who were unrepentant and were truly evil, those are the ones who will not inherit God's Kingdom, and yes, only God the Father and Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit can judge KNOW a person's heart.
I also believe that Paul wrote what Christ inspired him to write.
Here are some Scriptures that you could use against Disfellowshipping (the way that the Society does Disfellowshipping):
Matthew 18:15: "If your brother sins against you, go, show him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained back your brother.
Matthew 18:16: But if he doesn't listen, take one or two more with you, that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Matthew 18:17: If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the congregation. If he refuses to hear the congregation also, let him be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector.
Now, let us see how Christ treated Tax Collectors and Gentiles (the Watchtower Society CLAIMS that Jehovah's Witnesses are supposed to be FOOTSTEP FOLLOWERS OF JESUS, and are supposed to IMITATE EVERYTHING HE DID):
Matthew 9:9: As Jesus passed by from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax collection office. He said to him, "Follow Me." He got up and followed him.
Matthew 9:10: It happened as He sat in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and His Disciples.
Matthew 9:11: When the Pharisees saw it, they said to His Disciples, "Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"
Matthew 9:12: When Jesus heard it, he said to them, "Those who are healthy have no need for a physician, but those who are sick do.
Matthew 9:13: But you go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Matthew 21:31: Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I tell you that the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering into the Kingdom of God before you.
Matthew 21:32: For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you didn't believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. When you saw it, you didn't even repent afterward, that you might believe him.
The following Scriptures SHOW A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE of Witnesses (the Pharisee) vs. "Worldly People" (the Tax Collector):
Luke 18:9: He spoke also this parable to certain people who were convinced of their own righteousness, and who despised all others.
Luk 18:10 "Two men went up into the Temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector.
Luke 18:11: The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Luke 18:12: I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.'
Luke 18:13: But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to Heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'
Luke 18:14: I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 20 September 2002 22:55:53
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 20 September 2002 22:56:22
Lady Marianne, You and I think much a like. I wonder if we are similar ages? Though I only spent 10 yrs inside the Org. Because my mother is seriously ill I was associating with my sister recently. These rare moments give me insight into what type of woman my sister is. (been kept from knowing her for over 20 yrs). We were discussing films and I commented that "Dirty Rotten Scoundrals" and "Bird Cage" were my all time favorite movies. My sister was very enthusiastic about Dirty Rotten Scoundrals, but said she could not enjoy a movie that featured homosexuality (Bird Cage). So, lemme get this right? Theft and blatant fraud are ok for a jw but homosexuality isn't? Gimme a break! The homosexuality in Bird Cage was wonderfully portrayed. What delightful characters they all were. Honestly - if my sister is going to be that narrow minded I don't think she should watch any movies. They all feature sinful worldly people and what association does light have with darkeness. Bla bla bla? I am not gay and have a small amount of residual homophobia from growing up in a hetrosexual environment, but recently my sister in law has 'come out' and I would not consider treating her any different to the way I have always treated her. I could'nt think of anything more inhuman. I have no doubt that your brother is a wonderful person. That is what is important. There are a lot of 'straight' assholes in the world and probably some gay ones as well, but what really matters is how kind and thoughtful you are as an individual. I hope your situation isn't too unpleasant (shunning etc). I do know what it's like. I've lived with it a long, long time. It's truly barbaric. I am not a believer - but I think of those words "Father forgive them, they know not what they do".
warm regards
Marilyn
Robinhood.........The fact that it seperates families and causes pain makes me question whether it could be from God. After the things I've been through I don't even know at this point if God exsists.
So many here have come to feel the same way as you, though some also still believe in God. I agree with you that religion...because of the Bibles VAGUENESS, it's words that can mean many things, and all the problems that have resulted from it......does make one wonder why a loving father would leave a book for us such as the Bible.
Shelby:
Your beliefs in Jesus have come from the Bible. Were it not for the Bible......you would have never known such a man existed....unless he revealed it to you in some way such as a vision or a dream.
My question is.....how is it you have seperated the Bible in that you do not believe Paul was an instrument of Jesus.......but you believe in Jesus? Are the Gospels all that you believe in? What do you base this belief on if so?
Also remember what Jesus himself said about a brother who dosen't listen to you, or two, or the congregation. He said "let him be as a Man of the nations" I would say he is telling you to pass judgement on a man as unworthy to ..."be around"
Just ask them to name one person that Jesus disfellowshipped. Instead, he said to love your enemies, and pray for those persecuting you.
cb
