pseudoxristos,
I like your style.
When people tell me how wrong the trinity is I say OK what do you got and I always get an answer as out there as the one you spelled out so clearly.
First and the Last of Rev 1:17 - why in caps?
by Trotafox 27 Replies latest jw friends
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willy_think
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COMF
Spoken like a true atheist.
She said the concept doesn't work when she tries to look at it rationally. Then she said it helps us understand something. How do you figure I was speaking "like a true atheist" because I pointed out the incongruity?
Second question: if it does sound like an atheist, does that lessen the factuality of the point?
"God" -- talk about a concept that doesn't make rational sense or help us understand anything.......
Speak for yourself, man. The concept of God has always made sense to me. It's the evidence that's missing, not the logic.
Still rational people and people who believe in God
You see a distinction, do you?
agree it's good to love, thay just disagree about what love is.
What is this, an example of illogic in action? What on earth are you talking about? Whatever it is, it certainly has no connection with my question to Foxey.
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Trotafox
Still hammering this? Sorry I brought it up. All I wanted to know was why the WT chose to capitalize the First and the Last of Rev 1:17 when no one else does, including them in all other "first and last" scriptures.
COMF says:
Okay, I give up. How does a concept that doesn't make rational sense help you better understand anything?
I'm a female.
Nitey, nite.
Trot (a.k.a. Foxey and Karen)
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COMF
I'm a female.
Mmm, I know that's right! Foxey!
So it basically boils down to just one God and they are the one True God Jehovah and the other lesser mighty god Michael the Archangel aka Jesus.
Still working on counting up to two, are you? -
Alf3831
Cygnus,
Good to see you are doing well. Nice to see you active on the board. I completely agree with your last statement regarding the alpha and omega argument. Any child can read Revelation chapter 1, especially from verse 4 and clearly see that Jesus IS NOT the Alpha and Omega mentioned in verse 8.
Hope all continues well with you. Please do keep in touch.
Sincerely,
Alf3831
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DJ
Hmmmm Cyg and Alfie,
I thought that the topic of the thread was the First and the Last? I guess that it really doesn't matter much anyway because the First = Alpha and the Last = Omega in the Greek ALPHA-bet. Now I guess I just need you to prove to me that Jesus isn't the First and the Last in the Bible and I'll squirm like a piglet and join all the Atheists. lol dj
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UnDisfellowshipped
This is a pretty good Thread going!
If anyone is interested, here is a Thread I put up about the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA and THE FIRST AND THE LAST in Revelation: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=36024&site=3
Undecided said:
If Christ is God, then the whole idea of the ransom goes out the window. Could God give himself to himself as a ransom? Does he talk to himself like on the cross when he said,"Why have you forsaken me? It makes no sense, like most of the other doctrines of Christendom.
Ken P.
First of all, Undecided, that is NOT what most Christians believe. It is the Watchtower Society who always mixes things up and confuses everyone about the Trinity (Tri-Unity, which means Three in Unity).
Here is an example:
First, a Watchtower Publication will say, this is the definition of Trinity: Three Different Persons, all Eternal, all Co-Equal, are in UNION as the ONE GOD (all Three have all of the Divine Qualities and Attributes of God/Deity).
THIS IS TRUE, this is what most Trinitarians believe.
However, then later in the same Watchtower Publication, the Society will say something like, "how can anyone believe in THREE DIFFERENT GODS when the Scriptures say there is only ONE GOD."
However, by doing that, the Society CONTRADICTED itself, and changed the meaning of Trinity from Three Different Persons all being in UNION as One God, into Three Different Gods! (which is definitely NOT what most Trinitarians believe)
Also, though, the Society will also say that "Who was Jesus praying to if He was God?"
Well, there's a BIG PROBLEM with that question, because nearly all Trinitarians (except Pentecostals I think) believe that The Father is God, but He is a SEPARATE PERSON than the Son and the Holy Spirit, and also the Son and the Holy Spirit are SEPARATE PERSONS from each other.
So, then, to answer the question, "Who was Jesus praying to if He was God?", Jesus Christ, the Son, was praying to the Father (who is a SEPARATE PERSON)!
Also, it was God the Son who Sacrificed His Life to the Father!
When Jesus said on Cross, "Why have you forsaken me?", He was talking to His Father, not Himself!
The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are all GOD in their Nature and Essence.
The Son is in subjection to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is in subjection to the Father and the Son. But all Three are in UNION as God.
Also, there are several Scriptures that say that Jesus Christ is God, even some that say He is the Almighty God. There are also Scriptures that call Jesus Christ JEHOVAH (YAHWEH)!
I tried my best to explain it, I don't know how good I did.
I am by no means a Bible expert, and I have not read all of the Bible, but I have A LOT about Jesus Christ in the Scriptures, and it appears to me from what I have read that the Bible is definitely saying that Jesus Christ is God.
Let me ask a few questions:
Isn't it true that GOD ALMIGHTY ALONE is the only One to be WORSHIPED?
Exodus 34:14: For you shall not bow to another god, for Jehovah whose Name is Jealous, He is a jealous God
Isn't it true that GOD ALMIGHTY ALONE is the only One to be PRAYED TO?
Psalm 65:1: To the chief musician. A Psalm and Song of David. To You silence is praise, O God, in Zion; and to You is a vow paid.
Psalm 65:2: To You who hears prayer, all flesh comes.Isn't it true that GOD ALMIGHTY will not share His Glory and Honor with ANYONE ELSE?
Isaiah 42:8: I am Jehovah; that is My Name; and I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to engraved images.
Isaiah 48:11: For My sake, for My sake, I will act; for how is it defiled? And I will not give My glory to another.
Isaiah 48:12: Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel My called: I am He; I am the First; surely I am the Last.Now, look at these Scriptures about JESUS CHRIST:
Hebrews 1:6: And again, when He (the Father) brought the First-Born (Jesus) into the world, He said, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
Acts 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:60: And placing the knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not make stand this sin to them. And having said this, he fell asleep (in death).John 5:22: For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
John 5:23: so that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. The one not honoring the Son does not honor the Father who has sent Him.
John 5:24: Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.So, there you have it, the Bible says ONLY GOD is to be WORSHIPED, and yet, THE FATHER commands the angels to WORSHIP JESUS!
The Bible says that JEHOVAH GOD is the Hearer of Prayers, and yet, the Disciples and Apostles PRAYED TO JESUS!
The Bible says that JEHOVAH GOD will NOT share His Glory and Honor with ANYONE or ANYTHING else, and yet, JESUS says that ALL PEOPLE should HONOR THE SON JUST AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER!
I'd love to see everyone's comments on this Post.
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willy_think
Sorry COMF, I guess I over generalized your statement, but never having heard of a God or gods that maid rational sense or helped explain anything in the natural world, it was an easy mistake to make.
If You have a concept for a God/s that makes rational sense I would sure like to hear it.
My statement as to what love is; some people worship love as there God and some people believe love is an emotion.
If there is no evidence for God how could belief in God be rational?