The look in the eyes

by ozziepost 36 Replies latest jw friends

hillary_step

Ozzie,
This is a very emotive issue and I think you know that while I respect your views greatly I tend to take the opposite bench on this one.
The problem with condemning individual JW's for their attitudes is that it does not take into account the mental conditioning, sometimes over decades that individuals are exposed to within the WTS. We have all acted in despicable ways when we were JW's, perhaps even as extreme as the experiences that you note. This surely is is personal evidence of the strength of the repetitive mental conditioning we were drawn in to, we were not bad people, we were manipulated people.
As for Nuremberg. Well, Ozzie, the authorities did not prosecute the German people, but it did their leaders. Recognition was made early on in the trial that the German people had been conditioned over fifteen years by propaganda and were not culpable in the 'crimes against humanity'. The leaders however, who did the conditioning, even though some pleaded that they were as much victims as the common people, were rightly condemned for what they did. Their guilt was explicit, not complicit.
My two cents worth.
Best regards - HS
JosephMalik

No, Paul is telling them that their judgment of him was of no concern to him.
I believe it covers ALL MEN not just Paul and the Corinthians. You wanna be a judge in regards to any man, be my guest. I'll watch and see how you are judged later on.
Pomegranate,
Makes no difference what you believe. The letter itself was specifically written to the Corinthians and most of it is in direct response to the letter they sent to Paul that detailed not only their doctrines but their criticism for what Paul was teaching. Yes, we can use the examples today by extension but if we do not understand their specific setting then we easily misapply them as shown. 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Paul did not say that his letter was written to ALL MEN. What he DID say is that his letter was written to the Church of God in Corinth, and more precisely he said that it was written to them that are sanctified in Christ, called to be saints, since not all of them were such saints yet. He would be critical of them and attempt to correct their views in this letter.
Pomegranate said:His justification came from Christ and not from them.
Which will be true OF EVERY SINGLE MAN. You justify yourself when you judge another man.
I already demonstrated that this is not the context. Paul was chosen personally by Christ. You were not. We are not talking about the same things here and should not mix the authority of Paul or his justification with that of EVERY SINGLE MAN.
You see these Corinthians judging him were the sinners and Pauls letter was written for the explicit purpose of correcting them.
Pomegranate said: ALL MEN are sinners, even Paul. So what does one sinner have to do with judging another man's sins? That is out of line and Paul was bringing THAT to their attention.
Not all men taught the things these Corinthinans taught. Not all men needed the correction that Paul was giving them. His information was specific to them and their situation. This is not true of ALL MEN. Taking texts out of context and applying them randomly is the Watchtower greatest sin. And many other churches do the same thing. This is why error rather than truth rules over the faith today.
It is not that we cannot judge as Ozzie did.
Pomegranate said: It surely is. PUBLICLY condemning another man's sins puts one in for the same adverse judgment by Christ. To make a PERSONAL judgment is all well and good, as that is how one adjusts ONESELF. But that would be kept PERSONAL.
One who publicly condemns will receive public condemnation.
Paul did not keep their sins personal. He did not keep Peters sins personal but rebuked him publicly. In fact we are commanded to expose error and reveal truth to such ones. What you call condemnation is simply explaining such truth to them. But even if we take this worse case we have in support:
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude made a judgment regarding men and made that judgment public. Therefore the scriptures do not support your assumptions. We must be just, accurate, truthful when making such revelations but this is another matter.
Pomegranate said: Oh, surely you CAN judge others. That doesn't make it RIGHTEOUS and you will pay somehow for that judgment. I say if judgment is what you want to do and be, then it is exactly what will come back to thee. There is NO WIGGLE ROOM in this simple phrase which can be pulled from the context without changing it's very simple truth:
What truth? The paraphrase you did not identify? I get so tired of this. You have no case and no verse. It is that simple. Our use of the term judgment is also not in the same context as the texts you are trying to apply. We must exercise mercy yes, but the kind of exposure Ozzie demonstrated is quite proper and can be demonstrated throughout scriptures. That is what prophets, and disciples do. It is all part of teaching them all things our Lord commanded.
:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
Pauls appointment of Apollos was for this very purpose. He was putting a stop to the ones among them that were puffed up one against another violating scripture in the process. Apollos and others commissioned by Paul would deal with such ones with the authority of one of the twelve and outrank them in effect stopping the influence they had over others.
Pomegranate said: Paul empasizes what I have said in regarding to judging any man. The one who judges is PUFFED UP ABOVE another man. Are you truly ABOVE a blind JW?
This was their problem not Pauls, as they abused the faith but this does not prohibit the act of judging. Apollos would (Learn in us. Identify and correct) them. I brought this out in my comment and his comments were specifically directed against such Corinthians who were wrong. But your application of the text misses all this completely.
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Pomogranate said: You have surely ignored the context. Paul is speaking of PETTY disagreements of this life that the congregation was bringing to secular courts, not another man's righteousness. If they could not know what to do in this petty secular things, how are they to be given the divine task of being dawned as a judge in the future? They wouldn't. Simple.
Context? Then read on. Yes, it was legal matters that the secular authorities were called upon to administer in their behalf. But it was also introductory to the letter Paul would begin discussing in detail mentioned in the very next chapter that would contain matters of doctrine and salvation. Paul said: know ye not that we shall judge angels? And they were to prepare themselves now for this. That is also the point he is making. Who are these angels? Not spirit creatures for they have already been judged. Not over legal matters as they were doing then. This is a reference to resurrected mankind, consisting of Jews in fact (messengers of the covenant, angels) over which they would have responsibility as priests. So this same principle of judging disagreements then would also apply to faith and you will notice that the judging itself was not condemned, just the improper use of it. We shall judge angels. This is the truth. And Paul would use the rest of his letter to demonstrate such truth. He would show them how to prepare themselves for such judgment both then and now.
You see the scriptures do this for us now. Our Lord will perform the kind of judgment you are taking about. That is not our place. Our task is simple, to warn them and bring such things to their attention. This is judging but not in that context. Nor is it in the context you use which you also called condemnation. Such things cannot be determined until we die. Ozzie was correct in his observations and I agree with them as well.
Joseph
JosephMalik

The problem with condemning individual JW's for their attitudes is that it does not take into account the mental conditioning, sometimes over decades that individuals are exposed to within the WTS.
Hillary_step,
We can say the same thing of Baptist, Catholics and others. Are they saved when they die? Perhaps, but not as Christians and the disciples they thought they were but as what they were as human beings. That is if they qualify at that level. The cruelty JW's demonstrate is against them on something even so basic as their humanity. Some other churches will fare much better.
Joseph
pomegranate

Rom 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL.
Rom 2:3,4
So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them (JW's) and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL.

James 4:11-12
Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you-who are you to judge your neighbor?

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL.
Matt 7:1,2
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL.

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned."

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL

Rom 14:4
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL
Rom 14:10
You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL

Rom 14:13
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

James 2:12,13
Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Matt 12:36-37
36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Ps 94:15
15 Judgment will again be founded on righteousness...

Go ahead, judge your fellow man.
hillary_step

Hi Joseph,
We can say the same thing of Baptist, Catholics and others. Are they saved when they die? Perhaps, but not as Christians and the disciples they thought they were but as what they were as human beings. That is if they qualify at that level. The cruelty JW's demonstrate is against them on something even so basic as their humanity. Some other churches will fare much better.

Most other Christian religions, at least the long established ones, cannot be compared to the WTS in that they are not 'high control' religions who use a perpetual and planned propaganda modus to eventually interfere with the free will of a person, that is why I am pleased not to set myself up as a judge of the heart.
The methods of high control are well documented among many of the smaller religions, especially the Adventist groups who bred like rabbits in the C18th. Those that have survived intact through the process of theological evolution bear little resemblance to the major Churches, and certainly have a much greater influence in their adherents lives.
I believe that religion is a dangerous institution and should be gradually controlled by Government. I also believe that spirituality is a magnificent virtue when it lives outside of attempts to regiment and confine it within enforced social patterns.
Best regards - HS
.
JosephMalik

Most other Christian religions, at least the long established ones, cannot be compared to the WTS in that they are not 'high control' religions who use a perpetual and planned propaganda modus to eventually interfere with the free will of a person,
Hillery_step,
I know what you are trying to say but from my experience there is not much difference. Trinitarians demonstrate just as much controlled thinking as JW's. Perhaps they are nicer in many ways but that does not change much.
Joseph
JosephMalik

Rom 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judgethe other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL.
Rom 2:3,4
So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them (JW's) and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
Pomegranate,
The verses in Romans deal with covenant breakers, Christians keeping the LAW against which Paul constantly fought. And Paul was judging them here, in fact he did more then that. The same verse 3 you use shows it like this:
:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Sounds like Paul is judging them rather harshly. He points out the error of their ways first of course before putting the hammer to them. The simple truth is that judging the way Ozzie did and the way I have done by explaining their problems the way Paul does and exposing them is both good and proper. Simple! And He is not finished with them yet. He went on to say:
:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Wow, that blow was right in the kisser. That is what Ozzie did and that is what I did. It does not matter if you understand it or not.
James 4:11-12
Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you-who are you to judge your neighbor?
The simple truth here is that we are no longer under the LAW as James believed for many years after Pentecost but are now freed from it. So Jews should stop picking on other Jews or Gentiles that no longer keep it. The simple truth here is that James is now critical of the very ones that once followed his lead. James now judges their actions by calling them bad instead of good. He is now apologetic for his past views and is correcting them.
Matt 7:1,2
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

This teaching of our Lord deals with those that are hypocrites and improperly judging others. It does not mean that such judgment is forbidden. In fact if one would first do this then that person would qualify to perform such tasks. And what is that?
:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brothers eye.
But usually trying to reason with such hypocrites does no good so our Lord teaches:
:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Good advice but our Lord did not hesitate to judge such ones did he and taught us how to handle them as well.
I think that is enough for many on here to get the picture. Yes, many do judge improperly not seeing clearly, and they abuse scripture in the process but on here we have many with considerable experience in many situations over the years with JWs and they are in a position to say such things without fear of adverse judgment. They cleaned out their rafter long ago. Your views do not bother us as it is our life, our ministry and they have done well in fulfilling it. If this exposed the error of your ways as well then so be it. Makes no difference to us if you are a JW or of some other affiliation. The truth has set us free.
Joseph
Edited by - JosephMalik on 13 September 2002 19:8:38
pomegranate

>>The verses in Romans deal with covenant breakers, Christians keeping the LAW against which Paul constantly fought.
Paul is admonishing them on this: "for at whatever point you judge the other" which is NOT the Law.
He is NOT talking about law here. Law isn't mentioned ONCE in chapter one, nor is it mentioned in the slightest in the beginning of chapter two. Paul is stating AT WHATEVER POINT YOU JUDGE another man, you shall be condemned. No mention of LAW. It was for JUDGING ANOTHER MAN FOR ANYTHING WHATSOEVER.
>>And Paul was judging them here, in fact he did more then that. The same verse 3 you use shows it like this:
:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? <<
Paul was NOT judging them AT ALL. He was telling them not to judge, because if they do they are in for it from God. That isn't Paul's personal judgment, that is a simple stated fact based on God's Word.
>>Sounds like Paul is judging them rather harshly. He points out the error of their ways first of course before putting the hammer to them.<<
Paul never judged ANYONE here, and Paul NEVER put the hammer to anyone here. He spoke to them with strong words of admonition, stop the judging crap or you are in for it from God. Not his judgment, GOD'S TRUTH.
>>The simple truth is that judging the way Ozzie did and the way I have done by explaining their problems the way Paul does and exposing them is both good and proper.<<
Exposing is NOT judging. When someone calls someone NOT INNOCENT, they have taken on the robe of righteousness and called someone GULITY. If that is what you and Ozzie have taken upon yourself to do, you had better take Paul's counsel a little more seriously. Paul's words are admonition and not judgment. I would admonish you to accept them.
>>Wow, that blow was right in the kisser. That is what Ozzie did and that is what I did. It does not matter if you understand it or not.<<
I understand what Paul is saying. He is exposing people like you and Ozzie, men who were riddled in the congregation of Rome. Men just like the JW's who feel they can judge others RIGHTEOUSLY. JW's judge on the inside, you and Ozzie judge on the outside.
Both are improperly judging.
You expose by saying: I don't believe this because the Bible says that.
You judge by saying: They are NOT INNOCENT AS DOVES, they are guilty.
>>James 4:11-12
Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you-who are you to judge your neighbor?
The simple truth here is that we are no longer LAW as James believed for many years after Pentecost but are now freed from it. So Jews should stop picking on other Jews or Gentiles that no longer keep it. The simple truth here is that James is now critical of the very ones that once followed his lead. James now judges their actions by calling them bad instead of good.

That has to be one of the most convoluted pieces of confusion I have ever read.
>>Matt 7:1,2
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
This teaching of our Lord deals with those that are hypocrites and improperly judging others. It does not mean that such judgment is forbidden. In fact if one would first do this then that person would qualify to perform such tasks. And what is that?
Can you read? DO NOT JUDGE. ANYONE that judge's another man on ANY MATTER is a hypocrite and improperly judging. Christ's words were pretty easy even for a first grader. You know, a child.
Dismembered

I agree
JosephMalik

>>The verses in Romans deal with covenant breakers, Christians keeping the LAW against which Paul constantly fought.
Paul is admonishing them on this: "for at whatever point you judge the other" which is NOT the Law.
He is NOT talking about law here. Law isn't mentioned ONCE in chapter one, nor is it mentioned in the slightest in the beginning of chapter two. Paul is stating AT WHATEVER POINT YOU JUDGE another man, you shall be condemned. No mention of LAW. It was for JUDGING ANOTHER MAN FOR ANYTHING WHATSOEVER.
Pomegranate,
That is because you do not recognize the struggle between the Jews and the Greeks. This struggle mainly fell to Paul who had responsibility over both. In chapter one he said:
:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
And Paul makes this point again in chapter two. There is only one gospel for both but the Romans did not see it that way. For he said:
:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
And who were such men in Rome that held the truth in unrighteousness? Jews mostly and some Gentiles. So Paul is corrected them (judging) in harsh words few would use today. Regarding such men Paul said:
:
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Wow such scathing comments. Pauls admonition to such Romans switches back and forth between Jews and Greeks and if we carefully follow it we can see to which group he is directing his comments. Both were guilty and needed this. So it was LAW for the Jews and some pagan ideology that was being brought in for the Greeks. We see much the same thing in Corinthians where Paul addressed their letter to him. This is a great study but we never see it done anywhere and certainly not in WT material. So believe whatever you like but I have been through this before and have shown it clearly enough here. You keep looking for words and think because certain words are not there you have some sort of proof. I pay attention to what is taught to whom and why and that is enough for me. But the law is indeed mentioned in these verses, you simply are not looking. Paul brings up this struggle that existed between them like this:
2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
So in the end it all boiled down to conduct and conscience not law. That was enough. But you would have to study the whole letter to understand how Paul finally brought them into right thinking. This part is mostly introductory. You may not call this judging but I do and big time. Saying such things to others is not wrong. It is part of our ministry, our responsibility in fact and taught to us in such letters. The WT needs it and so do nearly all churches and denominations. Just because Ozzie singled out the WT does not mean that others do not need similar assistance as well.
Joseph

The look in the eyes

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