Satan didn't lie!!

by tyydyy 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • tyydyy
    tyydyy

    I remember reading the Adam and Eve story when I was a JW and it just didn't make sense to me.

    God said:

    "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."

    Satan said:

    "You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad."

    After they ate....God said:

    "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take the fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite."

    And guess what...... They did not die in the day they ate from it. They died many, many years later. Hmmmmmmmm

    WHO LIED????????

    TimB

  • Scully
    Scully

    I took a course in community college called "The Bible as Literature" circa 1981. I was a devout JW at the time, and thought the course would be a breeze. It was - I passed with 99.9% even though the professor gave me extra reading assignments and independent study projects on the book of Revelation and the Psalms. There was a Born Again fellow in the class too, he just couldn't wrap his head around the idea of there being more than one writer of Genesis, neither of whom were Moses.

    Anyway, this passage was one of the first ones we studied. And I remember when the professor asked about who told the lie in the story, everyone assumed automatically that it was "Satan". But no.... God said "in the day that you eat from it, you will positively die"!! "Satan" said: "You will not die".

    Adam and Eve didn't "positively die" on THAT day, did they??

    I brought it up with the elders, it was a kind of hobby of mine to stump them with tough questions. <heh heh heh>

    Of course, they used the "one day to mankind is like a thousand years to Jehovah" and "in God's eyes, they DID die that day - they were no longer perfect" yada yada yada....

    It made me laugh that they can take some parts of the Bible SO literally (144,000 go to heaven when the ENTIRE rest of Revelation is symbolic, not eating blood = no transfusions, etc) yet when this contradiction was staring them in the face, they start with the song-and-dance routine of "this doesn't mean what it means".

    Love, Scully

  • minimus
    minimus

    No. Satan did not lie. He used theocratic stratergy.

  • tyydyy
    tyydyy

    LOL @ Min

    Scully,

    Believe it or not, I just heard that same arguement about how they really died spiritually in that day from a Penecostal. LOL

    TimB

    Edited by - tyydyy on 4 September 2002 10:22:19

  • rocky220
    rocky220

    i no longer waste my time with biblical myths and fairly tales.........rocky 220

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    Ignotum per ignotius.

    Expatbrit

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    Hmm, so if one day with God is like 1000 years to humans, then let's redo the generation calculation:

    If a generation is 33 years (as Russell originally said), then there would be 12,053 days in one of God's generations. At 1 day=1000 years, then the generation of 1914 will not come to an end until the year 12,054,914. That's a fair bit of breathing space.

    Actually, when two persons speak, there are certain assumptions that are reasonable. Jesus closed the Bible by saying "I am coming quickly". 2000 years later, he is still missing. Imagine if you told your wife that you would pick up the kids "right away", then showed up five years later.

    If the Bible's words are as capricious as some Biblical appologists make them out to be, then they are really completely meaningless.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Well, the serpent did present an untruth in the form of a question when he asked Ishah: "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden?' " when in fact God did not. The presupposition is false, though the statement is not technically a lie since it is phrased as a question.

    Also Ishah (the woman) tinkers with the wording of the commandment. She adds a prohibition of touching to it, she reduces the severity of the punishment by deleting the part about dying "that very day," and represents God's generosity as mere permission. Her rewording
    ironically gets God off the hook, since in her version what God predicted did come to pass (being banished from the Tree of Life, she did die, but just not immediately).

    To the modern reader familiar with statements like "God is love" and "the devil is the father of the lie" God would seem to be incapable of lying. But the inherent division between good and evil in the nature of God and Satan is characteristic of later Judaism and Christianity, not of primitive pre-exilic Israelite religion. The Yahwist story of the Fall, like other primeveal legends in Genesis, is very much in the same spirit of other contemporary Near Eastern stories about the gods, where invariably they are presented as jealous, arbitrary, and intent on withholding man from divinity. This is the overarching theme in the Epic of Gilgamesh, where the hero's search for immortality is stymied by divine interventions. The myth about Etana similarly details the gods' prevention of the hero from flying to the vault to heaven.

    The seeming dishonesty of God in the story may be a thread of latent paganism in the story. In fact, the entire story smacks of Near Eastern mythology: the talking serpent, the winged figures guarding a sacred tree in Babylonian art, a garden of the gods, the plural "us" which God uses, the name Havvah "Eve" which is Phonecian for "serpent," and the title "Mother of all living" for Eve (cf. Aruru,
    the female creator of Adapa, the first man; KIB vi.1 Aruru zi-ir a-mi-lu-ti it-ti-shu ib-ta-nu "Aruru, together with him [Marduk], created (the) seed of mankind," vs. Gn. 4:2, "I have created a man with (the co-operation) of Yahweh"). In the original Canaanite/Phoenician version of the myth, God likely issued the commandment as a jealous ruse to withhold divinity from man instead of as a good-natured safeguard on the life of Adam. The serpent's motives were to disrupt the natural order and create conflict between man and the gods.

    One precursor of the tale may be the Babylonian legend of "Adapa and the South-wind," which incidentally was recorded in the 15th-century B.C. Tel el-Armana tablets and so the story was already well-known in Palestine prior to the emergence of Israel. Adapa, the son of the god Ea, was endowed by him with the fullness of divine wisdom, but denied the gift of immortality. Note that this is the reverse of Adam's status, who was given the fullness of immortality but denied divine wisdom. While plying the trade of a fisherman on the Persian Gulf, the south-wind overwhelms his bark, and in revenge Adapa breaks the wings of the south-wind. For this offence he is summoned by Anu to appear to appease the anger of Anu. Then the gods, disconcerted by finding a mortal in possession of their secrets, resolve to make the best of it, and admit him fully into their society by conferring on him immortality. The offer him the fruit of the tree of life so he may eat, and the water of life that he may drink. But Ea, who did not want Adapa to become a god like himself, deceived Adapa by telling him that what was being offered was really food and water of death, and strictly cautioned him to refrain from eating and drinking. He did refuse, and so missed immortal life. Anu asked him, "Why, Adapa, why have you not eaten nor drunk so you may live?" And Adapa replied, "Ea, my lord, commanded me, 'You must not eat nor drink, for I will die.' "

    Note how the commandment against eating is in fact a lie and is a self-serving ruse to deny divinity to man. The withholding of divinity is in fact a repeated theme in the primeveal stories of Genesis. In Gn. 6, the semi-divine Nephilim demigods introduced an element of disorder into the Creation which had to be eliminated by the Flood. In Gn. 11, the construction of a tower "with its top reaching heaven" threatened the domain of God and Yahweh saw that
    "this was but the beginning of their enterprise and now nothing will be impossible to them which they purpose to do," and the confusion of speech again prevents man from attaining equality with God.

    Within the context of pre-exilic Judaism, such stories were divested of their cruder polytheistic elements in order to make them impressive lessons on the folly of human pride and the supremacy of Yahweh in the affairs of men.

    Leolaia

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Leo

    But the inherent division between good and evil in the nature of God and Satan is characteristic of later Judaism and Christianity, not of primitive pre-exilic Israelite religion.

    This was likely changed through the influence of persian zerosterism. It's writings are saturated w the good/evil dualism. It talks of a universal contest between good and evil, mazda and ahiram. The persian conquest of babylon also brought in their religious influence, which the jews also absorbed, to an extent. Zerostrianism grew to be a major religion in the area, so much so, that it also later influenced christianity.

    SS

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Yup....dualism was one of the gifts of Zoroastrianism to Near Eastern religion.

    There are a few distant Persian parallels to the Eden story. The serpent Dahaka, to whose power Yima, the ruler of the Golden Age, succumbs, is a creature and incarnation of the evil spirit Angro-Mainyo. Under Yima there was neither sickness nor death, nor hunger nor thirst, until he gave way to pride and fell under Dahaka's influence. Another legend concerns Meshia and Meshine who lived at first on fruits, but who, tempted by Ahriman, denied Ahura Mazda, lost their innocence, and practised all kinds of wickedness. In none of these stories, however, do we find resemblences in the details like we do with the myth of Adapa and the South-wind.

    In the biblical story, the serpent is just a talking serpent -- supernatural, but presented as a wild beast of the field (Gn 1:3). St. John identifies it with Satan in Revelation by referring to Satan, the dragon, as the "original serpent." The phraseology and description however owes much to the Canaanite/Israelite myths on the sea monster Yam/Lotan/Rahab.

    Leolaia

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