Catholics cannonized the Bible, right?

by StinkyPantz 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • seedy3
    seedy3

    Here is one article that puts the date of John into the second century:

    "The first edition of the Gospel of John was composed, very early in the second century C.E. and under the pressure of Synoptic ascendance, as a combination of the Johannine Signs Gospel and the Synoptic traditions about the passion and resurrection. It is dependent, but very creatively so, on the Cross Gospel and the Synoptic Gospels for its passion and resurrection account. The earliest extant fragment of John is dated to about 125 C.E. [the Rylands fragment - John 18:31-4 - found in Egypt]."
    - John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus, The Life of a Mediterranean Peasant (1991)

    another Quote:

    "John was written for the Greek Christians of the beginning of the second century. These recent converts were more educated, wealthy, and despised the Diaspora Jews who resided in their cities and who enjoyed the respect of Rome. John removes the offensive references to Jesus as a Jewish Messiah that are particular to the earlier gospels, in order to present the Logos in more palatable form. In so doing, John creates a simulacrum that is barely human. The earlier Synoptic traditions are emphatic in presenting Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, descendent of David, and eschatological messenger of the end of the world where God collects his Chosen People. John removes the unpleasantness of Jewish geneaology as well as all references to Palestinian and Davidic descent.
    "Jesus is distanced from the Jews who are the children of darkness:"
    - James Still, "The Gospel of John and the Hellenization of Jesus"

    The Gospel of John, incorporating the hypothetical Signs Gospel, probably appeared about 90 C.E. and the third edition (insertions and additions) 100-150 C.E.. - The Compete Gospels, Robert J. Miller, Editor (1994), pp. 175, 176

    Now as far as Questioning his existance;


    Philo of Alexandria
    "Philo was born before the beginning of the Christian era, and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have existed on earth. He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ's miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness, and resurrection of the dead took place--when Christ himself rose from the dead, and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven. These marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were unknown to him. It was Philo who developed the doctrine of the Logos, or Word, and although this Word incarnate dwelt in that very land and in the presence of multitudes revealed himself and demonstrated his divine powers, Philo saw it not."
    - John E. Remsburg, The Christ : A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence

    Justus of Tiberius

    "Other than Philo, the historian Justus of Tiberius (c 80 CE) should have made some mention of Jesus. Justus was a native of Galilee (where Jesus was born and lived) and wrote extensively on the history of the region."
    - James Still, "Biblical and Extrabiblical Sources for Jesus"

    "...although his [Justus'] writings have been lost, Photius [Christian patriarch in Constantinople] had read them in the ninth century and remarks with surprise: 'This Jewish historian does not make the smallest mention of the appearance of Christ, and says nothing whatever of his deeds and miracles'."
    - George Albert Wells, The Jesus of the Early Christians: a Study in Christian Origins

    The Jews rendition of the Jesus story

    According to Morris Goldstein, Jesus in the JewishTradition "the Toldot Yeshu or Genealogy of Jesus is a medieval Jewish production for the frequent disputations with Christians that the Jews were forced to have in those times."
    - Dennis Stallings (private communication)

    "One distinguished rabbi, Eliezer, of the generation that flourished from about A.D. 70-100, is said to have been arrested as an old man on the charge of being a Christian. Reportedly, he submitted his cause to the Roman governor's discretion, was therefore pardoned, and later explained his arrest by the admission that once in Sepphoris, a city of Galilee, a Galilean had told him some heretical teaching 'in the name of Jesus the son of Panteri' to which he had assented. The story goes on to make him confess his quilt in transgressing the rabbinic ordinance prohibiting intercourse with heretics. This is suspicious; the ordinance may be later than the confession. Subsequent versions of the story cite that saying attributed to Jesus: 'From filth they came and to filth they shall return,' and a legal conclusion is drawn from it: the wages of a prostitute, if given to the Temple, may be used for building privies. The saying may be early - it resembles many of the Q sayings in being antithetical, vague, and pompous - the legal conclusion was probably drawn by some second-century rabbi."
    - Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) pp. 60-61

    "There can be no doubt that the words, 'one of the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth,' and 'thus Jesus of Nazareth taught me,' are, in the present passage both early in date and fundamental in their bearing on the story; and their primitive character cannot be disputed on the grounds of the slight variations in the parallel passages; their variants ('Yeshu ben Pantere' or 'Yeshu ben Pandera,' instead of 'Yeshu of Nazareth') are merely due to the fact that, from an early date, the name 'Pantere,' or 'Pandera,' become widely current among the Jews as the name of the reputed father of Jesus."
    - Joseph Klausner, "Jesus of Nazareth"

    "...The great Jewish scholar Joseph Klausner who wrote earlier in this century [said that] the very few references to Jesus in the Talmudare of little historical worth 'since they partake rather of the nature of vituperation and polemic against the founder of a hated party, than of objective accounts of historical value."
    - John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.

    "... In the earliest rabbinic sources, there is no clear or even probable reference to Jesus of Nazareth. Furthermore...when we do finally find such references in later rabbinic literature, they are most probably reactions to Christian claims, oral or written."
    - John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.

    As I said there is no credable evidence that Jesus even existed, much less that he may have been a God-man or even the miracle worker son of God. I have much more but I think you get the idea.

    Seedy

  • Mac
    Mac

    What about Justin Martyr? He was the most eminent of the fathers who wrote in the mid-second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demand that he use the four gospels if they existed at his time, yet not once are they mentioned! Nowhere in all his writings does he mention them.

    None of the four gospels are referenced in any other part of the new test. Furthermore, no artwork or any other relic of antiquity executed earlier than the later part of the second century has ever been discovered that can furnish evidence of the existence of these gospels.

  • bluesapphire
    bluesapphire

    Big boi, you might say that Jehovah used "some" anointed still left in Babylon the Grape. I would answer you with this:

    Which "anointed" men were used by God to decide the canon?

    Then I would follow with this:

    Let's take a look and see what these "anointed" men that God used to decide the canon themselves believed about the nature of Jesus, the nature of the soul, purgatory, etc. etc.

    I also might add the question:

    Why would God use apostate Christendom if he had a representative FDS he could have used .... (since the JWs claim that there is a line of descent from the time of the apostles leading to their modern day GB)? Well, then why didn't Jehovah use them instead of the apostate Catholics?

    That would make for a quite interesting conversation don't you think?

  • seedy3
    seedy3

    Blue,

    That is a point I have tried many times to get a JW to see, but they always say "Well many times in the bible Jehobah used non-beleivers to carryout his biddings, such as Cyrus and so forth." Hmmm, but he did that at a time when Israel were held by another empire that had been doing his bidding while his "Chosen People" were being naughty.

    I guess he would just rather use apostates for his work rather then bother his faithful with the task.

    Seedy

  • seedy3
    seedy3

    Interesting, the name Polycarp, and you say he met the apostle John, Sheesh john must have been a ral rickety old man when he met him as Polycarp did not convert to christianity until about 109. So when did he meet him??

    Also he up until about 130ad had never made mention of the Gospel of John.

    Polycarp, c. 130 Alludes to Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy; 1 Peter, 1 Clement; 1 or 2 John; Hebrews; at least one Gospel, Matthew; but did not regard the books as 'scripture.' Grant, Formation, p. 102f.

    An interesting read can be found at: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/chap5.html
    and here
    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/larry_taylor/canon.html

    Seedy

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    Why would God use apostate Christendom if he had a representative FDS he could have used .... (since the JWs claim that there is a line of descent from the time of the apostles leading to their modern day GB)? Well, then why didn't Jehovah use them instead of the apostate Catholics?

    That brings to mind this point - the nwt 'bible' is not even a translation, but simply a collection of stolen and altered other bibles. A natural progression for the wt - there's no end to their lies - they just keep comin.

    paduan

  • bchamber
    bchamber

    My book titled:

    "Catalogue of English Bible Translations; A Classified Bibliography of Versions and Editions Including Books, Parts, and Old and New Testament Apocrypha and Apocryphal Books" William J. Chamberlin. Westport, Connecticut: Greenwood Press, 1991.

    (Still in print after 11 yrs. This is a 960 page reference book.)

    Author of 47 published articles.

    The following is the Table of Contents. Please notice the names of O.T. Apocrypha books, O.T. Apocryphal books, and the N.T. Apocryphal books. Should they be part of the Scriptures? After looking at the Contents page of my revised book, see my reason for collecting English translations of everything listed in the Contents.

    CONTENTS

    PREFACE xi

    ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS xiii

    INTRODUCTION xiv

    EXPLANATORY NOTES xxiv

    THE HISTORICAL CATALOGUE

    Bibles

    Complete Bibles 1

    Abridged Bibles 52

    Bible Selections 71

    Children's Bibles 100

    Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testaments)

    Hebrew Scripture Listings 113

    Abridged Hebrew Scriptures 128

    Hebrew Scripture Selections 132

    Heptateuch 168

    Hexateuch 169

    Pentateuch

    Pentateuch Listings 171

    Pentateuch Selections 180

    Genesis 183

    Genesis and Exodus 202

    Exodus 206

    Leviticus 210

    Numbers 211

    Deuteronomy 212

    Decalogue 214

    Historical Books

    General Listings 215

    Joshua 216

    Judges 218

    Ruth 220

    Samuel 223

    Kings 226

    Chronicles 227

    Ezra 228

    Nehemiah 229

    Esther 229

    Megilloth 233

    Wisdom and Poetical Books

    General Listings 235

    Job and Selections 242

    Psalms 266

    Psalm Selections 342

    Proverbs 380

    Ecclesiastes 390

    Song of Solomon 401

    Prophets and Selections

    Major Prophets 437

    General Listings 437

    Isaiah 438

    Jeremiah 453

    Lamentations 457

    Ezekiel 461

    Daniel 464

    Minor Prophets

    General Listings 469

    Hosea 477

    Joel 479

    Amos 480

    Obadiah 482

    Jonah 482

    Micah 486

    Nahum 487

    Habakkuk 488

    Zephaniah 490

    Haggai 490

    Zechariah 491

    Malachi 492

    Apocrypha and Apocryphal Books 493

    Apocrypha

    General Listings 495

    Baruch 497

    Bel and the Dragon 497

    Ecclesiasticus 498

    Esdras 499

    History of Susanna 500

    Judith 500

    Maccabees 501

    Prayer of Manasses 503

    Rest of Esther 503

    Song of the Three Holy Children 503

    Tobit 504

    Wisdom of Solomon 505

    Apocryphal Books (O.T.)

    General Listings 507

    Apocalypse of Adam 514

    Apocalypse of Abraham 514

    Apocalypse of Baruch 514

    Apocalypse of Elijah 515

    Apocalypse of Ezra 515

    Apocalypse of Moses 515

    Apocalypse of Zephaniah 515

    Aristeas' Epistle 516

    Ascension of Isaiah 516

    Assumption of Moses 516

    Book of Adam 517

    Book of Jubilees 517

    Book of Shem 518

    Book of Enoch 518

    Jasher 521

    Ezekiel 523

    IV Ezra 523

    Odes of Solomon 523

    Psalms of Solomon 524

    Testament of Abraham 524

    Testament of Job 525

    Testaments of the Three Patriarchs 526

    Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs 526

    New Testament

    New Testament Listings 527

    Abridged New Testaments 594

    New Testament Selections 598

    Gospels

    Gospel Listings 609

    Gospels and Acts 623

    Gospel Selections 625

    Gospel Harmonies 628

    Matthew 654

    Mark 667

    Luke 674

    John 678

    Acts

    Acts Listings 691

    Acts and Epistles 697

    Epistles and Selections 699

    Pauline Epistles

    General Listings 709

    Pauline Epistles Selections 715

    Romans 722

    Corinthians 733

    Galatians 740

    Ephesians 745

    Philippians 749

    Colossians 752

    Thessalonians 756

    Pastoral Epistles

    General Listings 761

    Timothy 764

    Titus 765

    Philemon 766

    Hebrews 767

    Catholic Epistles

    General Listings 773

    James 774

    Peter 776

    Epistles of John 778

    Jude 782

    Revelation 785

    Apocryphal Books (N.T.)

    General Listings 807

    'Abd al-Jabbar Gospel Fragnebts 818

    Acts of Andrew and Acts ofAndrew and Matthew 818

    Acts of the Apostles 819

    Acts of John 819

    Acts of Paul 819

    Acts of Peter (Coptic) 819

    Acts of Peter (Greek) 819

    Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles 820

    Acts of Pilate

    Acts of Thomas 820

    Apocalypse of James - A 821

    Apocalypse of James - B 821

    Apocalypse of Paul - A 821

    Apocalypse of Paul - B 822

    Apocalypse of Peter - A 822

    Apocalypse of Peter - B 822

    Apocalypse of Thomas - A 822

    Apocalypse of Thomas - B 823

    Apocryphon of James 823

    Apocryphon of John 823

    Book of Elchasai 824

    Book of Thomas 824

    Dialogue of the Savior 824

    Egerton Gospel 825

    Gospel of the Ebionites 825

    Gospel of the Egyptians - A 825

    Gospel of the Egyptians - B 825

    Gospel According to the Hebrews 826

    Gospel of Mary 826

    Gospel of Marcion 827

    Gospel of Nicodemus 827

    Gospel of Nazaraeans 828

    Gospel of Peter 828

    Gospel of Philip 828

    Gospel of Thomas - A 829

    Gospel of Thomas - B 830

    Gospel of Truth 831

    Infancy Gospel of James or Protevangelium 832

    Infancy Gospel of Thomas 832

    Letters of Jesus and Abgar 832

    Letter of Peter to Philip 833

    P. Oxy. 840 833

    P. Oxy. 1224 833

    Pistis Sophia 833

    Prayer of the Apostle Paul 833

    Preaching of Peter - A

    Preaching of Peter - B

    Pseudo-Pauline Leter to

    The Laodiceans

    Pseudo-Titus

    Second Treatise of the Great Seth

    Secret Gospel of Mark

    The Testimony of Truth

    The Treatise on the Resurrection

    Trimorphic Protennoia

    Wisdom of Jesus Christ

    Reconstructed Biblical

    Sources Q

    The Signs Gospel

    Pseudo-Biblical 834

    Dead Sea Scrolls 845

    Josephus 847

    Early Church Fathers 851

    Koran 857

    BIBLIOGRAPHY 861

    INDEX OF TRANSLATORS, EDITORS, AND TRANSLATIONS 865

    I now have approx. 1440 different English translations of the Bible and parts thereof and many (around 200) non-canonical books as well.

    Its true that my collection might be said to be several collections - - but where does one stop? What is the Bible? What are the limits of inclusion in the Bible? The Jews believe that the Bible stops with Malachi. But up to about 120 yrs. ago, when the Jew used an English version, they had to use the King James, or it and a few selections of corrections. What makes the Apocrypha a part of the Bible? The Catholics? Ah, no, the King James Bible always had its version of the Apocrypha. The King James Bible always included a version of the Apocrypha, even though most Catholic translations dont include 2 nd Esdras and the Prayer of Manasses. The books that were not specifically included - - The Pseudepigrapha (Apocryphal, both the Old Testament and New Testament) - - need to be "available" in order to examine their important value in early Christian teachings and also to see why they were excluded.

    Some ministers and lay people believe that paraphrases should not be included in this work, because some of these paraphrases take extreme liberties with the text. I have run across some that are pretty padded. So I classified Josephus "Antiquities of the Jews" as a padded paraphrase of the historical portions of the Old Testament. Did I stretch his intention too far?

    Where does the N.T. stop? The Syriac claim that Revelations and some short books preceding are not part of the canon. Some Church Fathers have accepted other titles such as the Shepherd of Hermas. And the old Uncials included 1st. Clement and others. Are we going to let Catholic councils refuse us the permission to examine the evidence?

    What is Muhammadanism but an offshoot from Christianity? It refers to the Bible in places and seems to tell a different account of what happened in the few instances they "compare." If I "must know that much" surely accounts didnt stop there, that claim non-human origin. So, would it suit one better if I called it a Scripture in English collection?

    "Bible History" as researched by modern scholarship dont do more than intrigue the curiosity. I want to examine the ancient written evidence myself. "Theology" doesnt interest me from modern viewpoints (although I do read a lot of it). I want to see what it is based on. If I am to know truth, surely I need to know it for myself, and not somebody elses digest and opinion of it. What did they believe "then"?

    Your reaction to all this may show you that I am not a Bible collector for collecting sake, but for understanding. I liked English little enough in school. I have no desire to be bogged down in the technicalities of the original languages even if the original autographs were to be found. Variant translations seem the ideal way of understanding the opinions of what was originally written, though there is no full equivalency to be expected between languages. Therefore, we need translations that better reveal how the original expressed itself (literal), translations that express the thought that the translator "understood" and paraphrases which bring out the opinions of what scholars conclude was understood by the original readers.

    Thus, my 1440 or more translations and versions.

    Bill C

    Director

    The Bible Museum and Biblical Research Foundation

    IRS #509(a)(1) & 170(b)(1)(A)(vi)

    Fed. #38-2633578

    State of MI #733-568

    BMRFBooks (Our outlet for books not used)

    Vice-President

    International Society of Bible Collectors

    Edited by - bchamber on 3 September 2002 11:45:7

  • bchamber
    bchamber

    A Paduan

    That brings to mind this point - the nwt 'bible' is not even a translation, but simply a collection of stolen and altered other bibles.

    The same can be said of the most famous (by that I mean - most used) Bible ever. The KJV is NOT a new translation but the best from all previous translations up to that date. The so-called translations were instructed by the King to not make a new translation but to - - well my following article for yourself and then you will understand why I made the above statement about the KJV.

    Do We Still Need New Bible Translations?

    By William J. Chamberlin, Sr.

    Since we now have hundreds of translations in existence some may ask "Do we still need new translations?" This is an important question. The King James Version (KJV) translators can help us answer this question, and what they wrote is true, even today.

    But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand? How shall they understand that which is kept closed in an unknown tongue?... The Apostle excepteth no tongue; not Hebrew the ancientest, not Greek the most copious, not Latin the finest.... Therefore as one complaineth, that always in the Senate of Rome, there was one or other that called for an interpreter: [Cicero 5::de finibus.] so lest the Church be driven to the like exigent, it is necessary to have translations in a readiness. Translation it is that openeth the window, to let in the light; that breaketh the shell, that we may eat the kernel; that putteth aside the curtain, that we may look into the most Holy place; that removeth the cover of the well, that we may come by the water, even as Jacob rolled away the stone from the mouth of the well, by which means the flocks of Laban were watered [Gen 29:10]. Indeed without translation into the vulgar tongue, the unlearned are but like children at Jacobs well (which is deep) [John 4:11] without a bucket or something to draw with; or as that person mentioned by Isaiah, to whom when a sealed book was delivered, with this motion, Read this, I pray thee, he was fain to make this answer, I cannot, for it is sealed. [Isa 29:11].

    This includes English versions as well, for the English language is always in a state of change. Furthermore, English has many dialects that complicates the language even more. Many examples could be given, so I will list just two: 1) the Queens English vs the American English. 2), the English as spoken in the Southern United States vs that spoken in the Northern United States. Even the KJV had used archaic words back in 1611 that were hard for the readers then to understand. An example is the KJV translators used abbreviations and slang words in their 1611 translation (actually the 1611 version). In other words, the most used Bible in the world used words and abbreviations that the common person back in 1611 did not know what they meant!

    Another defense of new translations given by the KJV translators, no matter how good or bad they may be, was

    The translation of the Seventy dissenteth from the Original in many places, neither doth it come near it, for perspicuity, gravity, majesty; yet which of the Apostles did condemn it? Condemn it? Nay, they used it, (as it is apparent, and as Saint Jerome and most learned men do confess) which they would not have done, nor by their example of using it, so grace and commend it to the Church, if it had been unworthy of the appellation and name of the word of God. And whereas they urge for their second defense of their vilifying and abusing of the English Bibles, or some pieces thereof, which they meet with, for that heretics (forsooth) were the Authors of the translations, (heretics they call us by the same right that they call themselves Catholics, both being wrong) we marvel what divinity taught them so.

    Many people will not accept a new English translation of the Bible, let alone use it. Furthermore, some people do not know how to recognize a new translation or even old translation. As an example of this; an ad appeared in the Toledo Blade a number of years ago offering for sale a Bible for $50,000. The advertiser, when questioned on the phone about what the date of the Bible was, he stated that it was 1881. When asked if it was studded with jewels, he stated no, "its a St. James Bible." Others will not read from a Bible that does not have black covers or does not have the words of Jesus in red. Most people swear by the KJV as though God dedicated the Bible in English, and that the KJV is the same Bible the Apostles used in the early church. Little do they know that the KJV is not a "translation," in the literal sense. It is really only a new version, not a translation. The KJV translators themselves said:

    Truly (good Christian Reader) we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, (for then the imputation of Sixtus had been true in some sort, that our people had been fed with gall of Dragons instead of wine, with whey instead of milk:) but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath been our endeavor, that our mark.

    Proof of this claim is that approximately 75% of the KJV New Testament is word for word from William Tyndales version, the very same man that the English killed a few years before for making a translation into English! The translations that the KJV translators used to make their version included the Coverdale Bible, Tyndale N. T., Great Bible, Bishops Bible, Geneva Bible, and the Catholic Douay Bible.

    Every translator(s) of a given Bible only expects or hopes to receive what the KJV 1611 translators asked for - - a chance to be heard. The KJV translators also knew human nature and how important religion is to the people. They knew that most people do not like change, but change was necessary. In order to continue to understand the Scriptures, new translations in our common language are necessary. However, do we need to be overly worried about how good a job a translator does on the new Bible? Notice what the KJV translators said, "We do not deny, nay we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English... containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. As the Kings speech, which he uttereth in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian, and Latin, is still the Kings speech, though it be not interpreted by every translator with the like grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expressly for sense, everywhere." By the "very meanest" translation, they mean the most humble, common, or mediocre. They are speaking of other translations and translations in general, not their own translation. They also clearly stated that neither was their work perfect, nor did they as men have the privilege of infallibility. In the "Translators to the Reader" portion of the KJV (which, by the way, in not found in most KJVread today) they also had a lot to say about whether there were other valid ways to translate Greek words than the way they themselves did it. Another interesting text from the KJV translators:

    Zeal to promote the common good, whether it be by devising anything ourselves, or revising that which hath been laboured by others, deserveth certainly much respect and esteem, but yet findeth but cold entertainment in the world. It is welcomed with suspicion instead of love, and with emulation instead of thanks: and if there be any hole left for cavil to enter, (and cavil, if it do not find a hole, will make one) it is sure to be misconstrued, and in danger to be condemned...

    That is what they were asking for in regards to their work on the KJV. We read the Bible to gain a better understanding of Gods Word, to learn why we are here, who our God is, to gain a relationship with God and Jesus, and to gain comfort. We must always remember that what we are reading may or may not be what God spoke or had written. Should we then read the Bible in the Hebrew and Greek? That can be misleading as well. First of all, which Hebrew or Greek manuscript should we read? There are literally hundreds of them, and they are all in some ways different so which one is the "Word of God"? Since no original autographs exist, what can a person do in order to understand what "Gods Word" really says? Besides, probably 99% of the people of the world can not read either/both Hebrew and Greek even if they did have the original documents.

    What is the next best thing a person can do in order to get a close understanding of what was originally written? The answer is a collection of Bibles in whatever language a person understands, and then only by doing a comparison of them when reading for understanding. Variant translations seem for many to be the ideal way of understanding what was originally written even though there is no full equivalency between languages. Therefore, we need literal translations that help us to understand the original meaning, and also translations that express the thought that the translator "understood," and paraphrases which bring out the opinions of what scholars conclude was understood by the original readers.

    No perfect translation, version, or edition of the Bible exists. All translators tend to lean towards their own religious beliefs when choosing the words they use in their translations, including the KJV. The KJV translators had this to say, "We do not deny, nay we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English... containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God." This being the case, we can rely on Gods Holy Spirit to guide us in our study of Gods written Word. And new translations help us to do this.

    By the way, the KJV contained the Apocrypha offically up until the mid-1800s. My 1st edition contains it.

    Also, did you notice that no matter how good or how bad a translation may be, the KJV translations said that it is still the Word of God. I hold to that as well. Thus, the NWT, no matter how bad you may think that it is, is still the Word of God.

    BChamber

    Edited by - bchamber on 3 September 2002 14:39:53

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Interesting thread.

    I don't know if Iam alone on this, but the bible no longer hold any interest for me. After over thirty year's of reading and lecturing on it, trying to understand it's obvious contradictions and whimsical flights of prophetic hogwash, when called upon to read or discuss it, I get nauseous.

    Similar I think to the feeling's of jw's when confronted with past writings of Charles Taze, Rutherford, or Franz. A sick realization, that those former written words were considered sacred and inviolate, but now nothing more than 'old light' (?) or not worth the paper they were written on.

    I know this souds blasphemous to some, but show me just one factual, non-interpretive, bit of evidence that proves that the bible is in fact the unerring word of the Almighty creator, and I will have cause to rethink my position.

    Danny

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    Also, did you notice that no matter how good or how bad a translation may be, the KJV translations said that it is still the Word of God. I hold to that as well. Thus, the NWT, no matter how bad you may think that it is, is still the Word of God.

    Though it is based on other work, the King James "Version" attempts to address language issues - a "verging" of work, and yes, still a Word of God. There has not been an effort to cloud the roots of the KJV, as there is with the New World "Translation" - carried across from another language (not) - and I don't know whose word that is.

    Thus, the NWT contains a lie in its very name - NWA, the "New World Alteration" would be a more appropriate definition.

    paduan

    Edited by - a paduan on 4 September 2002 8:1:5

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