by UnDisfellowshipped 24 Replies latest jw friends

  • UnDisfellowshipped

    This is, I believe, a VERY IMPORTANT SCRIPTURE for Jehovah's Witnesses to read -- because it PROVES that in the MOSAIC LAW, there was a ONE-WITNESS POLICY for RAPE!

    I want to give a HUGE Thank You to "Nanoprobe" for pointing this out on another Thread! :-)

    I think everyone should ask the Society about this Scripture!

    Deuteronomy 22:25: If an engaged woman is raped out in the country, only the man will be put to death.
    Deuteronomy 22:26: Do not punish the woman at all; she has done nothing wrong, and certainly nothing deserving death. This crime is like murder,
    Deuteronomy 22:27: because the woman was ALONE out in the country when the man attacked her. She screamed, but there was NO ONE to help her.

    Ask the Society why they have a RIGID TWO-WITNESS POLICY for CHILD RAPE!

  • JosephMalik


    You do not need all that. The answer is simple. When dealing with a crime the two witness rule does not apply. Scriptural laws have their limitations and must also be understood in this overall context, notice:

    Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    All Governments, good or bad were created by Him and for Him to maintain order until His Kingdom is established here in their place. The scriptures clearly state: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, (rulers with authority) and that are in earth, (common man under their control) visible (local and near) and invisible, (remote and far away as in Rome) whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Everything described here is earthly and human and since such heavens belong to the Christ, avoiding them and their jurisdiction is unscriptural. Such authority includes the Church that exists along with such heavens and earth. So to your point and to some others that see this but cannot see the biblical involvement here is the scriptural precedent some are requesting. but again the WT has distorted such texts and their meaning so as to render such verses useless. Therefore the texts under discussion must be understood within this overall context as well and many answers have actually hit around this very point. The WT seeks to avoid this clear scriptural command by diverting attention away from it.

    Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are Gods ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

    A scriptural rule that Paul welcomed in his behalf.

    Acts 25:10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesars judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.


  • UnDisfellowshipped

    I agree 100% with both of you.

    The Society will use anything they want in order to accomplish whatever they want.

    And I agree, Romans 13 and Colossians CLEARLY show how WRONG and EVIL the Society's Policies are.

    I was just trying to show Witnesses, by using a Scripture in Deuteronomy (because the Society seems to LOVE using the 2-Witness Rule from Deuteronomy), that the Society is not even consistent if they are going by Rape Policies in the Mosaic Law.

    The Society also has a 0-WITNESS POLICY for Whistle-Blowers!

  • Nanoprobe

    Thanks for noticing, UNDE !

    The WTS basically tries to picture God as cruel and disliking women.

    What I think is important from an understanding of those scriptures about screaming is the circumstances. L et's pretend that I live in a city with a 3 minute response time to a 911 call and someone breaks into my house. Can I survive for 3 minutes? That's my decision to make. However. most people do call 911. Now let's pretend that I have 911 panic button hanging on my neck and it's my next door neighbor who will respond with gun in hand. Even if the criminal is physically very near to me and holding a weapon I personally think ---I'm pushing the button, because I know the neighbor can be there in 25 seconds. I also have no guarantee I'm getting out of this alive so I'm willing to fight for a chance.

    On the other thread I said: In ancient Israelite cities---- there was no automobile/traffic noise, no airplanes overhead, no concrete trucks pouring next door, no televisions, no radios, no electricity and in fact, not even any glass in the window openings. Also women didn't work outside the home, children didn't go to school and men didn't commute. People were all around. If a woman screamed she had a very good chance of being heard and immediately rescued before she was injured. The SCREAM was like the panic button.

    Notice the same law did not apply to areas where she would not be heard.

    But today circumstances are much different also even if you are heard will anyone help? Today the criminals have guns and can shoot from a distance, etc, etc.

    Maybe its not the law in Deuteronomy that was cruel but it is the way it is applied today. (and are we under law anyway?)

    Also I tried to find a Question from Readers regarding Lot's Daughters. It my memory it said something to the effect that Jehovah apparently viewed the assault of a male (homosexual rape) as worse than the assault of a woman (Vaginal Rape) Couldn't find that info. Does anyone have it? I think the FDS's thinking on this situation has a bearing on their pedophile policy today.

    I found this on the 1999 CD...but I don't think it's entirely what I remember.

    Was it not wrong for Lot to offer his daughters to the Sodomites? ( Watchtower 1979 Questions from Readers 12/1)

    This account has puzzled or disturbed many, particularly women. Some persons have even charged that Lot acted in a cowardly way, that he should not have offered to pay for his guests safety with his daughters virtue or that he should have given himself to the mob............ This account is a valuable part of the Bible. It serves to accentuate Sodom and Gomorrahs badness, it stirs up indignation in righteous ones who read it, and it manifests Gods disapproval of homosexuality

    Edited by - nanoprobe on 28 August 2002 14:55:30

    Edited by - nanoprobe on 28 August 2002 14:58:6

  • cruzanheart

    I've noticed that the Bible doesn't say what Lot's DAUGHTERS thought of that offer!

    Here's a question for you: If a tree falls in the forest and there aren't two witnesses or one elder or three ministerial servants, did it really happen?

  • Nanoprobe

    Cruzan, and where on earth did a nice little witness girl like you come up with that "wild" sixties kinda of a

    name? J

    Deuteronomy says that if one girl heard the tree fall --it happened. The society says, "no, way"

    Edited by - nanoprobe on 28 August 2002 16:52:5

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    A "Cruzan" is one who is native to or lives on the island of St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands. About the only thing manufactured these days on St. Croix is, you guessed it, Cruzan Rum.

    It my memory it said something to the effect that Jehovah apparently viewed the assault of a male (homosexual rape) as worse than the assault of a woman (Vaginal Rape)

    I don't recall that article and/or Question from Readers, but I'd love to read it. I agree it would be an insight into their thinking regarding the pedophile issue.

    I've always agreed with the idea put forward by many theologians that Lot did this because of the absolute demands their society placed on hospitality to guests (the angels). If faced between having his guests gang raped or having his daughters gang raped, (as awful as either choice is) it would be consistent with what is known of Middle Eastern tribal culture that a guest must be protected and cared for above all else. If looked at from this perspective, male rape would not be considered worse than female rape, nor would Lot be considered a coward, but rather he would be attempting to the best of his ability to fulfill his obligations and responsibilities as host.

  • UnDisfellowshipped

    Here are Scriptures that show that Christians ARE NOT supposed to live by the Mosaic Laws and Rules:

    Galatians 3:1: Foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you not to obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth among you as crucified?
    Galatians 3:2: I just want to learn this from you. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing of Faith?
    Galatians 3:3: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now completed in the flesh?
    Galatians 3:4: Did you suffer so many things in vain, if it is indeed in vain?
    Galatians 3:5: He therefore who supplies the Spirit to you, and works miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing of Faith?
    Galatians 3:6: Even as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."
    Galatians 3:7: Know therefore that those who are of Faith, the same are children of Abraham.
    Galatians 3:8: The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by Faith, preached the Gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you all the nations will be blessed."
    Galatians 3:9: So then, those who are of Faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
    Galatians 3:10: For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse. For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who doesn't continue in all things that are written in the Book of the Law, to do them."
    Galatians 3:11: Now that no man is justified by the Law before God is evident, for, "The righteous will live by Faith."
    Galatians 3:12: The Law is not of Faith, but, "The man who does them will live by them."
    Galatians 3:13: Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,"
    Galatians 3:14: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through Faith.
    Galatians 3:15: Brothers, I speak like men. Though it is only a man's Covenant, yet when it has been confirmed, no one makes it void, or adds to it.
    Galatians 3:16: Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his Seed. He doesn't say, "To seeds," as of many, but as of one, "To your Seed," which is Christ.
    Galatians 3:17: Now I say this. A Covenant confirmed beforehand by God in Christ, the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, does not annul, so as to make the promise of no effect.
    Galatians 3:18: For if the inheritance is of the Law, it is no more of promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by promise.
    Galatians 3:19: What then is the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to whom the promise has been made. It was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.
    Galatians 3:20: Now a mediator is not between one, but God is one.
    Galatians 3:21: Is the Law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a Law given which could make alive, most assuredly righteousness would have been of the Law.
    Galatians 3:22: But the Scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by Faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
    Galatians 3:23: But before Faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, shut up to the Faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    Galatians 3:24: So that the Law has become our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by Faith.
    Galatians 3:25: But now that Faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
    Galatians 3:26: For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.
    Galatians 3:27: For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    Galatians 3:29: If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.

    Acts 15:1: Some men came down from Judea and taught the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can't be saved."
    Acts 15:2: Therefore when Paul and Barnabas had no small discord and discussion with them, they appointed Paul and Barnabas, and some others of them, to go up to Jerusalem to the Apostles and Elders about this question.
    Acts 15:3: They, being sent on their way by the Assembly, passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles. They caused great joy to all the Brothers.
    Acts 15:4: When they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the Assembly and the Apostles and the Elders, and they reported all things that God had done with them.
    Acts 15:5: But some of the Sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the Law of Moses."
    Acts 15:6: The Apostles and the Elders were gathered together to see about this matter.
    Acts 15:7: When there had been much discussion, Peter rose up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that a good while ago God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the Word of the Gospel, and believe.
    Acts 15:8: God, who knows the heart, testified about them, giving them the Holy Spirit, just like He did to us.
    Acts 15:9: He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by Faith.
    Acts 15:10: Now therefore why do you tempt God, that you should put a yoke on the neck of the Disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
    Acts 15:11: But we believe that we are saved through the Grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are."
    Acts 15:12: All the multitude kept silence, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul reporting what signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.
    Acts 15:13: After they were silent, James answered, "Brothers, listen to me.
    Acts 15:14: Simeon has reported how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His Name.
    Acts 15:15: This agrees with the Words of the Prophets. As it is written,
    Acts 15:16: 'After these things I will return. I will again build the tent of David, which has fallen. I will again build its ruins. I will set it up,
    Acts 15:17: That the rest of men may seek after the Lord; All the Gentiles who are called by My Name, Says the Lord, who does all these things.
    Acts 15:18: All his works are known to God from eternity.'
    Acts 15:19: "Therefore my judgment is that we don't trouble those from among the Gentiles who turn to God,
    Acts 15:20: but that we write to them that they abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood.
    Acts 15:21: For Moses from generations of old has in every city those who preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
    Acts 15:22: Then it seemed good to the Apostles and the Elders, with the whole Assembly, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas: Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the Brothers.
    Acts 15:23: They wrote these things by their hand: "The Apostles, the Elders, and the Brothers, to the Brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: greetings.
    Acts 15:24: Because we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the Law,' to whom we gave no commandment;
    Acts 15:25: it seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
    Acts 15:26: men who have risked their lives for the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Acts 15:27: We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves will also tell you the same things by word of mouth.
    Acts 15:28: For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things:
    Acts 15:29: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you. Farewell."
    Acts 15:30: So, when they were sent off, they came to Antioch. Having gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter.
    Acts 15:31: When they had read it, they rejoiced over the encouragement.

    Colossians 2:13-23:

    YOU were dead through YOUR trespasses and the uncircumcision of YOUR flesh. He made YOU alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, wiping out the Handwriting in Ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the Cross; having stripped the principalities and the powers, He made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge YOU in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath Day, which are a shadow of the things to come; but the Body is Christ's. Let no one rob YOU of YOUR prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding firmly to the Head, from whom all the Body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and ligaments, grows with God's growth. If YOU died with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as though living in the world, do YOU subject yourselves to Ordinances, "Don't handle, nor taste, nor touch" (all of which perish with use), according to the precepts and doctrines of men? Which things indeed appear like wisdom in self-imposed worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but aren't of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.

    Ephesians 2:13-16:

    But now in Christ Jesus YOU who once were far off are made near in the Blood of Christ. For He is our Peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the Law of Commandments contained in Ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man of the two, making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the Cross, having killed the hostility thereby.

    Romans 8:3-4:

    For what the Law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Also, Jesus Christ HAMMERED the Pharisees for following the Laws RIGIDLY and without mercy!

    Matthew 12:1: At that time, Jesus went on the Sabbath Day through the grain fields. His Disciples were hungry and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.
    Matthew 12:2: But the Pharisees, when they saw it, said to him, "Behold, Your Disciples do what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath."
    Matthew 12:3: But He said to them, "Haven't you read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who were with him;
    Matthew 12:4: how he entered into the House of God, and ate the Show Bread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for those who were with him, but only for the Priests?
    Matthew 12:5: Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath Day, the Priests in the Temple profane the Sabbath, and are guiltless?
    Matthew 12:6: But I tell you that One greater than the Temple is here.
    Matthew 12:7: But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless.
    Matthew 12:8: For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
    Matthew 12:9: He departed there, and went into their Synagogue.
    Matthew 12:10: And behold there was a man with a withered hand. They asked Him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath Day?" that they might accuse Him.
    Matthew 12:11: He said to them, "What man is there among you, who has one sheep, and if this one falls into a pit on the Sabbath Day, won't he grab on to it, and lift it out?
    Matthew 12:12: Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath Day."
    Matthew 12:13: Then He told the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out; and it was restored whole, just like the other.

    Mark 2:18: John's Disciples and the Pharisees were fasting, and they came and asked Him, "Why do John's Disciples and the Disciples of the Pharisees fast, but Your Disciples don't fast?"
    Mark 2:19: Jesus said to them, "Can the groomsmen fast while the Bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the Bridegroom with them, they can't fast.
    Mark 2:20: But the days will come when the Bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then will they fast in that day.
    Mark 2:21: No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, or else the patch shrinks and the new tears away from the old, and a worse hole is made.
    Mark 2:22: No one puts new wine into old wineskins, or else the new wine will burst the skins, and the wine pours out, and the skins will be destroyed; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins."
    Mark 2:23: It happened that he was going on the Sabbath Day through the grain fields, and His Disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of grain.
    Mark 2:24: The Pharisees said to Him, "Behold, why do they do that which is not lawful on the Sabbath Day?"
    Mark 2:25: He said to them, "Did you never read what David did, when he had need, and was hungry -- he, and they who were with him?
    Mark 2:26: How he entered into the House of God when Abiathar was High Priest, and ate the Show Bread, which it is not lawful to eat except for the Priests, and gave also to those who were with him?"
    Mark 2:27: He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
    Mark 2:28: Therefore the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

    John 9:14 It was a Sabbath when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes.
    John 9:15 Again therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he received his sight. He said to them, "He put mud on my eyes, I washed, and I see."
    John 9:16 Some therefore of the Pharisees said, "This Man is not from God, because He doesn't keep the Sabbath." Others said, "How can a Man who is a sinner do such signs?" There was division among them.
    John 9:17 Therefore they asked the blind man again, "What do you say about Him, because He opened your eyes?" He said, "He is a Prophet."
    John 9:18 The Jews therefore did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and had received his sight, until they called the parents of him who had received his sight,
    John 9:19 and asked them, "Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?"
    John 9:20 His parents answered them, "We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind;
    John 9:21 but how he now sees, we don't know; or who opened his eyes, we don't know. He is of age. Ask him. He will speak for himself."
    John 9:22 His parents said these things because they feared the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that if any man would confess Him as Christ, he would be put out (Disfellowshipped) of the Synagogue.
    John 9:23 Therefore his parents said, "He is of age. Ask him."
    John 9:24 So they called the man who was blind a second time, and said to him, "Give glory to God. We know that this Man is a sinner."
    John 9:25 He therefore answered, "I don't know if He is a sinner. One thing I do know: that though I was blind, now I see."
    John 9:26 They said to him again, "What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?"
    John 9:27 He answered them, "I told you already, and you didn't listen. Why do you want to hear it again? You don't also want to become His Disciples, do you?"
    John 9:28 They insulted him and said, "You are His Disciple, but we are Disciples of Moses.
    John 9:29 We know that God has spoken to Moses. But as for this Man, we don't know where He comes from."
    John 9:30 The man answered them, "How amazing! You don't know where He comes from, yet He opened my eyes.
    John 9:31 We know that God doesn't listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshipper of God, and does His Will, He listens to him.
    John 9:32 Since the world began it has never been heard of that anyone opened the eyes of someone born blind.
    John 9:33 If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing."
    John 9:34 They answered him, "You were altogether born in sins, and do you teach us?" They threw him out.
    John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of God?"
    John 9:36 He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?"
    John 9:37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and it is He who speaks with you."
    John 9:38 He said, "Lord, I believe!" and he worshiped Him.
    John 9:39 Jesus said, "I came into this world for judgment, that those who don't see may see; and that those who see may become blind."
    John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and said to Him, "Are we also blind?"
    John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 29 August 2002 5:38:48

  • UnDisfellowshipped
  • Utopian_Raindrops

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