The Organization -An Enemy or Friend

by stevieb1 13 Replies latest jw friends

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  stevieb1

  I would like to ask you for your collective help:

  I am in the process of attending a judicial committee meeting with three elders because of my "speaking" of "apostate" ideas in the congregation. They have made responses to some of my thoughts but I can't make a reply in turn. The elders' reasoning seemed so logical to me (probably because I was a JW for 16 years) and so I would like to recieve some ideas from you as to how I can respond to some of their points:

  1. View of the Organization. Why do apostates view the WTS as an enemy when it is trying to be a friend by bringing many to Jehovah?

  2. Governing Body. The elders feel that the following verses apply to the work of a Governing Body in the first century:

  Acts 15:25-27 - "we have come to a unanimous accord and hae favoured choosing men to send to you together with our loved ones, Barnabas and Paul, men that have delivered up their souls for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We are therefore dispatching Judas and Silas, that they also might report the same things by word."

  They feel that this indicates the role of a Governing Body. They indicated that the word "dispatching" is similar to to today's GB appointing missionaries etc.

  Acts 16:4,5: "Now as they travelled on through the cities they would deliver to those there for obsevance the decrees that had been decided upon by the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem. Therefore, indeed, the congregations continued to be made firm in the faith and to increase in number from day to day."

  This, they said, applies to the direction from the overseers coming to us from the Governing Body.

  3. Organization in Jehovah's Creation: Since there is so much order in the creation, why would Jehovah NOT favour using a religious organization today?

  4. Perceptions of the Organizaton: The elders said that JW's view the organization as a friend that loves them but apostates feel that the organization has some secret agenda.

  5. Organziation & Jesus Christ. The elders stated that the organization does not put itself in the postion of Jesus Christ and is rather like a company under the direction of Christ as Managing Director
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  Siddhashunyata

  The organization always looks good from a distance. When you get close ( regular attendence , field service, etc.) its style becomes apparent. Power and control. Methods and techniques to assure power and control. Unrightous coercion and extortion. Justifying dishonorable methods by pointing to honorable ends. Together these techniques are harmful to the members and unless one leaves one will will lose one's ability to make choices. Its similar to being in an abusive relationship and , despite the importunings of the abusive mate, once you see it clearly you must flee before you lose your ability to flee.
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  BluesBrother

  Try not to be boxed into having to answer their loaded questions that make it seem hard to object to the Org. Ask them to explain things instead.

  Do not allign yourself with "Apostates" unless you want a quick exit.

  Yes, the first century Christians had a leadership, that is historical fact , no dispute there. But that does not prove the Borg to be their succesors , such a title has to be earned , not self proclaimed. The onus is on the Society to prove it's credentials. Point to recent scandals, would the apostles have done that?

  They claim to be a lot more than admin managers for Christ. Point to some choice quotes where they call themselves prophet , eg WT 1972 April 1st p 197

  Good luck , I also am expecting a meeting soon
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  outoftheorg

  The questions they ask you are irrelevent.

  Creation is organized so does that also make organized crime legitimate?

  If you don't mind being df'd ask them the questions. Questions not on biblical issues. But about the organ transplant issue for example. If organ transplants are not a sin now, were they ever a sin? The only correct answer is no. So if never a sin who shares the blood guilt of those who died trying to follow directions from the gb.

  If the fractions from blood now acceptable to the wbts are not now a sin, were they ever a sin in the past? Again the only truthful answer is no. Then again who is to share the blood guilt for those who died following the demands of the wbts.

  The same thing applies to the military issue, the ban on education, the strong encouragement from the wbts about 1975 being the year of armageddon etc.

  Make up your own list of questions with help from the many posts on this forum. Write them down with all the info you will need. Ask them about these things one at a time and don't go to the next until you have an answer from them. Use this forum, ask others for help with the information, print out what you can use.

  Good wishes. outoftheorg
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  Satanus

  Unless you want to be dfd, don't give full answers to questions about the org. Questioning the orgs authority or legitimacy are dfing offences. You could say that you are willing to wait on jehovah to provide answers, or somesuch. Or that you questions are sincere, but not serious.

  I would like to answer question 3. Organization in Jehovah's Creation: Since there is so much order in the creation, why would Jehovah NOT favour using a religious organization today?

  Nature is ruthless and violent. Balance/order is maintained by everything preying on everything else. Death in nature is very important, as without it, animals would overgow food supplies and strave anyway. Also they would crowd out other species. The vast wastes of africa, dried up, used up, show what would result. In science mags, i have read of parasitic worms that actually change the behaviour of their hosts so that the parasite will be able to go to it's next stage. Isn't nature wonderful? It shows what it's creator is like.

  In deep space scientists are finding creation and violence of unimaginable proportions. Stars blowing off millions of tons of thier outer materials, leaving a neutron star, whose matter is so dense that a teaspoon of it could wiegh many tons. Even more dense, are quarck stars. Also, stars circling each other, one feeding on the other by ripping away it's gases. Black holes w gravity so strong that time and space are destroyed. An object caught in a black hole, never stops falling because time gets so distorted. Isn't nature wonderful? It shows what it's creator is like.

  And so, seeing what the creation is like, i would say that 'the world' is more like nature than the perfect org that the wt claims to be. We then have no excuse to not join in the world, feeling and being a part of it, enjoying it and making it a better place.

  SS

  Edited by - saintsatan on 21 August 2002 17:31:36
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  hillary_step

  Stevie,

  Might I ask whether you have read the book by Raymond Franz entitled 'Crisis Of Conscience'? If you have not I would recommend delaying your JC until you read the book IF you want to present a clear answer to these questions.

  I can assure you that the elders are not meeting with to seek a compromise, or lsten to what you have to say. They will quickly evaluate your views of the GB and if you continue questioning their attempts at making you 'see the light' about the GB and the Organization you will be quickly disfellowshipped.

  A good friend once found himslef in a similar position to yourself, and decided to pretend that he had started questioning the WTS only he had allowed himself to become 'weak' and told the JC that he needed time to sort himself out. They viewed this as repentance and did not DF him. He was then able to drift away slowly with everybody thinking he had become just another casualty weakened and enticed by the world. He still is able to have fellowship with his family, his prime objective for following this course.

  If it is not in your nature to be able to proceed in this manner, then I feel that you are just going to have to bite the bullet and either DA yourself or be DF'd.

  Whatever happens - good luck - HS
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  Liberty

  If your stock broker told you to buy Enron stock because God told him it was a sure thing but then after it goes belly up and you lose your money he said, "well it was your fault for reading too much into my suggestion. Afterall, I'm only human!" and then a couple of weeks later he says you should invest in Worldcom because God says it is a sure thing this time and when this one goes belly up and you complain he threatens to shun you would you consider him to be your friend?

  I listened to the Organization and lost parts of my life I'll never get back because they told me about a "sure thing" investment promised by Jehover himself. They are not my friends as they have proven to be liars everytime and it cost me parts of my life and I got nothing I was ever promised. Me and millions of others. An honest religion or stock broker says up front , "this is a gamble because we only have limited information so be careful and be preparred to lose your investment if we are wrong about this." This person could be my friend but not a liar like the Watchtower Society who said that they had the insider info from God himself that it was a sure thing.
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  ThiChi

  Read Galatians 1:1, 10,11. Does not sound like Paul believed in a GB!

  Acts 15: "It was not some small group of men meeting in secret session to make a decision. Instead, the record indicates a gathering of considerable size, an assembly of Jerusalem elders, with the whole congregation eventually expressing its approval...."

  In Search of Christian Freedom, Page 46.

  READ THE BOOK! THERE WAS NO FORMAL GB IN THE FIRST CENTURY. In fact Pauls ministry and home base was out of Antioch not Jerusalem.

  The meeting was held in Jerusalem because that is where the trouble makers were from! See Acts 15: 1, 2,5,24.

  READ THE BOOK!

  Edited by - thichi on 21 August 2002 18:28:6
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  ThiChi

  Remember, "Apostolic authority" was present in most of the first century. No one can claim that authority today!

  Jesus said: Only one is your Master, you are all Brothers."

  "Christian Elders had Scriptural authority, true. It was however, authority to serve, not to subordinate others; to assist, counsel, even reprove, but never to dominate or dictate to."

  Edited by - thichi on 21 August 2002 18:50:36
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  JT

  O no another person who wants to meet with the "Cheese Cracker Guys"

  Why do you all submit yourselves to such foolishness. I have heard that some folks are a glutton for Pain- well anyone who wants to meet with Mo Larry and /Curly to prove a point must be joking.

  while many meet like Bill did to show all just how goofy the wt program is, many actually meet with the goal of Sharing something-

  If you are meeting with Real Society Men, you will not get the chance to say much at all, real society men elders ask all the questions and you will have to provide an answer or from your lack of answering they will view it as guilt

  as Leon Weaver told us at elders school THIS IS NOT A SOAPBOX for those who are questioning the org.

  in fact he stated that you should be able to determine in about 15 min if this person has "sincere" questions or is just using this meeting to promote their views and understanding of issues.

  bottom line__ real society men will SHUT YOU DOWN- i have been amazed at how many of you have been able to talk for hours and bring out all kinds of xeroxed material- for in the hall i was in any HINT of apostasy would have caused the brain meltdown for most of the elders on the body i was on

  no apostate woould be allowed to share their views

  the only issue on the table would be DO YOU NO LONGER BELIEVE THAT JAH IS USING THE SLAVE

  wHILE I WOULD never encourage anyone to waste their time with these 3 clowns, the choice is for each to decide, but i would suggest take the wife out for a nice dinner and wine and come home and make love to your wife and sleep like a baby - instead of debating with guys who are part of the "Cheese Cracker Gang"

  just my 2