why do people think jesus died on a cross?

by watermelon 32 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Sangdigger

  NewWay, i agree with you on the device used. It really doesnt make any difference, we worship the Christ of the Cross(or stake,tree,whatever) not the Cross of Christ. And as someone posted earlier, all this bickering created by WTS in their attempt to seperate themselves from maintstream Christianity just divides.

  But at the same time, those of us who were former JW's, cant keep ourselves from getting wrapped up in studying these things. Even though most of the time i dont even think about those things, i cant keep from looking at pictures and stereotypes in the old testament. Pomegranate, that was really cool. The story of Moses(who really was a picture of the comming christ) holding up his hands. Even Jesus himself told peter that one day he would "stretch out his hands" speaking of his death.
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  Room 215

  It's as Jan says: they're always keen to ``distance themselves'' from the mainline Christian churches. Other examples are their refusal to be listed in the newspapers or telephone diretories with ``Houses of Worship'' and the like, and their recent insistence on calling Jesus' cousin ``John the BAPTISER''...heaven forbid that he might have been a BAPTIST!

  It would seen that an objective consideration of the historical evidence is likely to favor the probability of cross over stake by a slight margin. Taking such a dogmatic postion oin this issue in the absence of any conclusive evidence to me misses the point entirely.

  What seems lost on these dunderheads is that the most cogent anti-cross-as-decorative-jewelry argument to make is that it would seem offensive to wear whatever object of execution it was as a fashion accessory or object of devotion. What, for example, if Jesus had been shot, hung or electrocuted? What trinkets would the faithful be adorning themselves with then?
• 

  JanH

  room,

  It would seen that an objective consideration of the historical evidence is likely to favor the probability of cross over stake by a slight margin.

  By a very wide margin.

  - Jan
• 

  ChiChiMama

  Watermelon,

  I am confused too so don't feel like you are alone.

  I have never been able to figure out why people want to argue about what Jesus died on.

  It seems like such a trivial point to me. The main point should be as far as I am concerned is than an inocent man (supposedly God's Son ) was put to death as the story goes.

  Who cares what he died on, stake or cross, the results would be the same either way!
• 

  Ice Blue

  It seems to me true, that it matters not much whether cross or stake at this point in time. It does however matter if we are being deliberately misled for sinister reasons. Question the dogmatism Watermelon, search for truth - if truth can indeed be found

  Ice
• 

  ChristianObserver

  Erm..... because historically this is the most likely scenario, upheld by tradition :o)

  The reference to Moses and his outstretched arms is of obvious significance as is the apparent traditional preparation of the Passover lamb with one vertical skewer and then one horizontal skewer across the upper shoulders.

  Moreover, Roman prisoners were often bound to a *furca* - a wooden beam across the shoulders - with arms stretched outwards and sometimes forwards, depending on the shape of the wooden apparatus used - rather different from the general *hands tied behind the back* representation that is often shown in films.

  The use of *xylon* is also significant both in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It does not only mean *tree*, though obviously the use of tree imagery throughout the Bible is significant, it is used for stocks when Paul was imprisoned (Acts 16) and for gallows in the Septuagint. The Romans had permanent sites of execution and trees or uprights were already in place.

  When considering the weight/length of a timber which would be required to be sunk in the ground sufficiently far down and firmly to take a grown man without any other supports - and if this was the timber which was to be carried to the site of execution as well, through crowded streets, after a severe flogging, by the victim - in the absence of any other evidence, the sheer logistics would militate against the upright being the timber carried.
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  BugParadise

  Christian Observer~>The reference to Moses and his outstretched arms is of obvious significance as is the apparent traditional preparation of the Passover lamb with one vertical skewer and then one horizontal skewer across the upper shoulders.

  Also in Exodus 12 we see the instructions repeated twice on how the blood was to be applied to the door. The Top post the left side post and the right sidepost. This also forms the shape of the cross and each side where the hands were nailed and the top where the crown of thorns caused the blood to flow. They applied the blood to the door and then went inside their house and waited for the death angel to pass over them.

  ~Bugs
• 

  Sangdigger

  Excellent posts! Ive learned more on this one topic than i could have studying for a month! While reflecting on the subject at hand, i think the other reason the JW's make such an issue about the instrument of execution,(besides trying to distance themselves from everyone else) is the fact that the cross as we know it in the form of the letter "t" was reminiscant of the god tammuz. (at least thats what i was always told as a JW) and it would be unthinkable for God to allow his son to be killed on an object that represented a false god.

  But what they fail to realize is HELLO!!! the ROMANS WERE PAGANS!!! They borrowed this form of execution from the pheonecians who were also pagans. Of course God is going to let wicked, pagan people kill his only son, have a murderer be released (barabus), have his garmets gambled over, be spit upon, then hung between two thieves, but stop the executioners from placing him on a upright pole that contains a cross piece.

  Again, (in my opinion) im not saying it was definately a cross, although i think the evidence strongly favors it. Watermelon, i think the biggest question you need to ask yourself, is not what did he died on, but what he accomplished, and furthermore, why do some religious groups--no names mentioned...haha make such a big deal over it. What is thier motive? Is it a pure motive? A desire to get to the truth? or a political agenda?

  Someone mentioned earlier in this post about Thomas telling Jesus "unless i see the print of the NAILS" indicating there was more than one nail used. (John 20:25) I dont think this was mentioned, but in Matt27:37 it says "Above his HEAD they placed the written charge againts him: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS" It would seem without a cross piece, the written plaque would be over his HANDS, like the WTS always picture.
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  Reslight

  Two nails could have been used whether the execution was on a upright stake or if the stake -- stauros -- of if the stake had a crossbeam -- a Tau, as the hands would have been nailed to the sides of the stake and not over his head (as often shown in the WT illustrations).

  While many keep claiming there is abundant evidence that Jesus did die on a cross (Tau-shaped instrument) in actuality I have as yet seen no real evidence to support the claim. What evidence attributed to the first century that has been given is very sparse and inclusive. But this, of course, is not what is important, but it is more important that his death instrument not be idolized, whether a cross or a stake.

  My research on this is at:
  http://reslight.addr.com/cross.html

  Christian love,

  Ronald
• 

  pomegranate

  Moses is the only evidence I need. Though there is more...