"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty 111 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • bafh
    bafh

    Yes, it is a Christian view. I think it is a misnomer to believe that Christian forgiveness somehow means there are no consequences for actions. Didn't Jesus forgive the sinner on the cross? The sinner was forgiven, and yet still died. The scripture says, "the wages sin pays in death" - that is the consequence. And yet, God resurrects and forgives.

    maybe the confusion here is the word consequence - it could easily be replaced with "result". Your actions create results. Those results are independent of anyone's forgiveness of the harm your actions caused.

    It could be something simple like - I tell my friend something in confidence. They don't keep it. I'm hurt, but I forgive them and we stay friends. The consequence is that I do not tell them confidential information. If it was a repeated pattern or something else very serious, then maybe I choose not to be friends with them any longer. That does not mean I don't forgive them.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Didn't Jesus forgive the sinner on the cross? The sinner was forgiven, and yet still died

    Jesus didn't crucify him.

    If a parent says to a child that they forgive them for stealing a biscuit and then beats the child to death is the parent a hypocrite?

    What if they just beat them a lot but don't kill them?

    What if they just smack them on the leg a few times?

    Or they just send them to their room?

    What if the court asked the relatives of the murder victim if they want the death penalty?

    Modern, western Christians are thoroughly muddled about forgiveness. They know the courts will punish the culprit to the full extent of the law so they are free to talk about "forgiveness" without any actual cost.

    Forgiveness is not always a virtue.

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    Yes, it is a Christian view

    Thank you baft.

    On my first post on this thread I said I wasn't sure how I view forgiveness. I had a discussion with someone a while ago regarding it and I was unable to come to a conclusion. I felt that there needs to be some sort of repentance and the first step i thought was to cease the action. if someone is punching my face in they need to stop before i can think of forgiving them. I also thought that 'God has a required way for seeking and receiving his forgiveness.' (Insight on the Scriptures 1988) and as we should imitate Christ I thought this was probably the best way to view the word forgive and so although i often may feel i do not agree with cofty i could see what he i think he was saying about the word forgive. While not judging whether the people mentioned were right or wrong as I am not sure my view is correct.

  • bafh
    bafh

    Yes, I have a Christian view, but not necessarily a JW view. Jesus forgiveness of sins and subsequent healing of individuals did not require much. In fact, there was a "prescribed way" of doing things - the Jewish Law - that Jesus was the fulfillment of. I don't think as humans we have much insight into what God requires of any one person in order to be forgiven. Even the slightest turn to repentance might suffice.

  • bafh
    bafh

    Hmm. I'm not sure what to do with your response Crofty. You don't stay on point, address my questions or offer an alternate view (for example, what do you think forgiveness looks like?). You simply repeat yourself over and over as if that is argument enough.

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    Yes, I have a Christian view, but not necessarily a JW view.

    This comment isn't meant to be argumentative. However in one of my earlier posts I quoted from Vines Complete Expository Dictionary under the words Forgive,Forgave, Forgiveness page 251 which seems maybe similar to the view of 'a required way'

    'Human "forgiveness" is to be strictly analogous to divine "forgiveness," e.g., Matt. 6:12. If certain conditions are fulfilled, there is no limitation to Christ's law of "forgiveness," Matt 18:21,22. The conditions are repentance and confession, Matt.18:15-17; Luke 17:3.'
  • bafh
    bafh
    ok, well, I guess I don't have a Christian view then. I think there are requirements that God may place on people in order to be Forgiven but I don't think that a human, in order to forgive another human always requires that. In fact I know they don't. Forgiveness in a general, human sense is just to let go of negative feelings toward the person.
  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    ok, well, I guess I don't have a Christian view then.

    I think you probably do have a Christian view just a different and probably a better view than my own.

  • R. Jerome Harris
    R. Jerome Harris

    To forgive is a wonderful thing. But forgiveness is not to come without knowing "why" one is forgiving. Jesus knew precisely why he asked forgiveness for his accusers, persecutors and executioners: Because they did not know what they were doing.

    I do not believe that one should forgive for the sake of blindly forgiving. I blame the religious system - called by men - Christianity for indoctrinating people with a type of forgiveness teaching Christ never taught.

    "Christianity" has a full history of bloodshed and the oppression of others. Namely, The Spanish Inquisition, The Crusades, The Salem Witch Trials, it's involvement in war, and what I take personally - The African Slave Trade.

    It was a Roman Catholic Pope - Pope Nicholas V - who sanctioned and endorsed the Slave Trade. He was a racist and bigot.

    The United States of America and much of Europe (especially Great Britain) who was actively involved in The African Slave Trade and becoming wealthy from it (Christian nations), NEVER apologized to the people whose ancestors that enslaved!

    It seems to me that "Christianity" is always the first to point out the atrocities and heinous acts of others and demanding what it does to be overlooked, justified or forgiven but not prone to forgive others.

    When people - in this case Black church folk who get on television - and forgive, what is this REALLY? It gives all racist and bigots (many of whom hide behind Christianity such as the KKK) a license to murder Black people (or anyone else) with the belief that those poor people have a forgiving mindset.

    The media is eating this stuff up. The Black ministers and politicians are playing it all up as well and lying beneath the surface is money. A lot of money is going to be made from this event and everyone is in on the game!

    I blame Christianity for that. This is not what Christ had in mind with regards forgiveness.

    True forgiveness cannot be superficial and just mere words spoken. It has to be a part of you. In your blood, bones and marrow. It has to come from deep from within. True forgiveness can only be given from love. If those offended are not willing to give their lives up for this man, then they do not love him. So how can they have forgiven him? Jesus gave his life up even for those who hated him.

    I am doubtful that the family claiming to have forgiven Roof REALLY forgave Roof. They said what they said as it sounded like the right thing to say. Inside, them is grief and hurt and anger.

    I submit as well that it is wrong of the media and anyone else to ask any person victim to such a thing, "Do you forgive this person?" What a terrible thing to say!

    Forgiveness should be "private." It should be something the individual resolves within himself. When Jesus asked his Father to forgive his accusers, persecutors and executioners, he did not announce from the torture stake to those people "I forgive you." They would never know from Jesus' own lips that he forgave them. Neither did they know or understand that the very "act" of Jesus dying was for their benefit.

    Why is it then, we think that we must announce to all of the world when we have forgiven someone. It should be by what we do with regards those we forgive (privately) that shows that we have TRULY forgiven someone.

    Words and holding "Bible Studies" are powerless and do nothing. These are all superficial things. (That is how this world wants us, superficial beings). It is what we do in showing love towards friend and foe alike that proves that one is a disciple of Christ - not words.

    Jesus said at John 13:35: "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

    Love is an "action" not words spoken.

    Christianity is not from Christ, it is from men. It is actually the enemy to Christs teachings. (Christ never call himself a Christian. He never called his disciples Christians and never commanded such a thing. His disciples never called each other Christians. What men call Christianity is an impostor. It's coming was foretold by Christ at Matthew 24:4-5)

    It has created mental dysfunction and impairment in the masses on the earth. Even among the sincere and innocent.

  • ballistic
    ballistic
    To forgive; part of it is to realise that we are all useless sinners and capable of many horrendous things under certain circumstances.

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