"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty 111 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Laika

  I tend to say I've 'forgiven' the JWs who cut me off, but as far as our friendships go, the forgiveness is pretty meaningless without their 'repentance'. That is, unless they recognise their treatment of me as wrong and take steps to reach out to me, they can never receive my forgiveness, but I am certainly open to this reconciliation should they ever want it.
  Of course this is a much more extreme case, and I'm not going to speak on behalf of the families. I think letting go of anger and the need to exact vengeance are good things, but you can't have reconciliation with someone who wants to murder you, no matter how open you are to the possibility.
• 

  Ucantnome

  I would be interested in your thoughts on what forgiveness means.

  I have read the comments.

  In my Vines Complete Expository Dictionary under the words Forgive,Forgave, Forgiveness page 251 it says

  'Human "forgiveness" is to be strictly analogous to divine "forgiveness," e.g., Matt. 6:12. If certain conditions are fulfilled, there is no limitation to Christ's law of "forgiveness," Matt 18:21,22. The conditions are repentance and confession, Matt.18:15-17; Luke 17:3.'

  I think then to forgive would be for the sin or debt to be completely cancelled as if it never happened.

  
  
• 

  cofty

  I think then to forgive would be for the sin or debt to be completely cancelled as if it never happened.

  So if the court asked the relatives of the murder victims what should be done they would say let him go free would they?
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  flipper

  Their are certain things in life that should NEVER be forgiven- no matter what mentally off religionists claim. One of those things is a prejudiced nutcase who sits in church for an hour with other people pretending he's interested- then open fires and kills 9 people whose children, spouses, and friends lives will never be the same and forever changed for the worse as this piece of filth and prejudiced jack-ass sits in jail on the taxpayers dollars. Eating food that American taxpayers pay for.

  Even thinking forgiveness for this animal is a crime in itself as it disrespects the 9 murdered victims of his onslaught. We need to respect the dead. This man's prejudiced attitudes and view of life as well as his mentally insane condition led to his demented attitudes towards African Americans. Perhaps he should be hung in a tree and the families allowed to do to him what he has done to their relatives. Eye for an eye. It's the kind of " justice " our black brothers and sisters suffered in the 1800's. Turnabout is fair play.

  If America keeps ignoring racial prejudice, ignoring responsible gun control, ignoring police corruption- we are going to see more and more of these hate crimes go unanswered and continue unabated. It's disgusting. Animals treat each other better than humans many times
• 

  Ucantnome

  So if the court asked the relatives of the murder victims what should be done they would say let him go free would they?

  Probably not but I don't know.
• 

  Magnum

  I have only read the OP. I deliberately refrained from reading any other posts because I didn't want them to color my thoughts. I will go back and read all posts after I make this post.

  For those people to say they forgive the murderer as they did to me totally weakens and makes impotent and devalues the whole concept of forgiveness. Forgiveness should be something a person bestows after thoughtfully weighing the relevant circumstances. If one forgives after such, then he empowers the concept of forgiveness; he gives it value.

  So those people just instantly punched the forgive button? Does that mean that everything is to be instantly forgiven? If not, then I would like for them to explain to me what would not be instantly forgiven. The guy planned and carried out cold-blooded murder. There seem to have been no mitigating circumstances. And he's automatically forgiven? Shouldn't they have at least waited to see if he would say a simple "I'm sorry"?

  If, perhaps ten or more years down the road, the punk showed a sustained and unwavering genuine remorse, then I would say they could choose to forgive him (I'm not saying they should). But even if he's forgiven, I think he should pay with his life - either literally or by being confined until he drops dead.

  So my point is that now that they've instantly forgiven cold-blooded, premeditated murder, then I guess I have to instantly forgive anything that could be considered to be less serious. You seriously slandered me? I instantly forgive you. You stole my life savings? I instantly forgive you. You murdered my beloved dog? I instantly forgive you. It just doesn't make sense.
• 

  cofty

  Interesting comments thanks.

  It is a topic that has interested me for a long time and I appreciate getting to discuss it.

  I agree with the point that Flipper made about the way that this automatic, instant forgiveness disrespects the lives that have been taken.

  I think in the modern western world we have a safety net. It is trivially easy to say "I forgive you" while being certain that the state is going to act on our behalf and punish the murderer to the full extent of the law. Remove that and then ask what forgiveness means or if it is even a virtue.

  Reducing forgiveness to something about controlling your emotions and not being consumed with hatred is not really forgiveness. It is something we do for our own benefit as emotionally mature adults.

  In ancient societies - and some 21st century ones - it is the closest blood relatives who have the right and duty to avenge the death. Such communities that are based on honour and vengeance have very high rates of violence. It was in this context that the bible needs to be read.

  As an intelligent 21st century western citizen I agree to allow the state to have a monopoly on violence and vengeance. I would demand the state deals with a murderer of my family on my behalf. To then claim that I had forgiven them would be pretentious.

  Forgiveness is not always a virtue.
  
  
• 

  StrongHaiku

  cofty - So if the court asked the relatives of the murder victims what should be done they would say let him go free would they?

  Good point. In the US all that the relatives, etc. of the victims can do is testify at their sentencing. If he is declared guilty, they have the opportunity to provide testimony on whether, for example, they should impose on him a harsh (in some cases a reduced) sentence.

  As far as forgiveness goes, I think in this case the only people who ultimate have the right to forgive (or not) are the direct victims of the crime. That man killed the only people who I think had the ultimate authority to forgive him.
• 

  sunny23

  Hypothetically:

  Lets say its discovered that this racist kid had a large tumor on his brain giving him a severe lack of empathy and increased aggression. He also was heavily indoctrinated by others to have the world view that he has. He also has severe chemical imbalances that are measured and quantified that can explain his sociopathic tendencies. Lets add in that he was threatened by a racist group leader into doing this act as well. He was also abused by African Americans much of his childhood in various forms. He is also mentally handicapped.

  He still needs to be treated and locked up to protect society but would forgiveness on the part of victims families be more acceptable in this scenario? People need to be held accountable for their actions but can they still be forgiven? I think some here are implying that forgiveness must always include a suspension of accountability and justice. Perhaps its that forgiveness has no place in a court room and only in the "hearts" of those effected.

  I don't believe that the forgiveness that the kids said they had for this murderer = they want the murder to roam the streets than to be in prison. I think their world view of sin, satanic influence, potential future repentance, salvation, and divine justice in an afterlife as well as a dash of faked public piety are what lend to a different definition of a type of human-to-human unconditional forgiveness these kids and other Christians might sometimes have. In that sense, yes their idea of forgiveness is not similar to ours.
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  Ucantnome

  sunny 23

  I think some here are implying that forgiveness must always include a suspension of accountability and justice.

  The 'some here' i'm wondering if you are including me.

  My post was in answer to how I see the word forgive/forgiveness.

  In Mark 2 they said only God can forgive sins and Romans 13:4 says that governments 'are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.' (NIV)