"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty 111 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  bafh

  You are confusing forgiveness with consequences.

  Forgiveness is letting go of negative feelings such as anger or revenge toward the person who has harmed you. It an action a person takes for themselves, not for the person who they forgive. It is a way to free oneself from the upset around a bad experience. It does not require the other person to do anything, not even apologize.

  You can forgive someone and still enforce consequences. Parents do it all the time. And, repentance, does not forego consequences either. A person may have a real remorse for the harm they have done, and still suffer the consequences of their actions. I believe this happens to some in prison. Does not change the outcome of their situation, but it does change them internally.

  The two are separate and unrelated in many cases.
• 

  cofty

  bafh - That is a modern, western, half-arsed interpretation of forgiveness.

  How can a parent say to their child "I forgive you and now I am going to beat you to death"?
• 

  bafh

  Parents don't say that - but they do forgive their child and send them to their room, or put them in time out, or any number of punishments.

  Forgiveness does not require that there be no restitution. Even in the Old Testament, there was a process laid out to restore what had been taken, or damaged that allowed for the individual to remain part of the community. For example, If something was stolen, it had to be repaid 7 times as much.

  the individual was forgiven, and there were consequences.

  You are referring to an event that happened in a modern, western world. And the consequences for this type of action have been established in law by the citizens. A jury of his peers found him guilty, and he was ordered to pay for the murders he committed with his life.

  What would you prefer the outcome to be?
• 

  bafh

  I think what has irritated me about this is that it isn't authentic.
  
  Here we have adult children of a murder victim saying they already forgive the murderer of their parent less than 24 hours after the event. The murderer is still filled with hate and has expressed no regret.
  There is nothing authentic about this. It is a pre-programmed reaction. They are performing for the watching world.

  Really, who are you to judge how these people feel? Talk about a high horse. You may not be capable of forgiveness as swiftly, but that does not make their ability to do so any less real.
• 

  cofty

  bafh - I used to be an evangelical. I know the culture.

  It is utter bullshit to claim to forgive somebody who just murdered your parents a few hours ago, who is proud of what they did and would do it again in a heartbeat.

  It dishonours the value of the lives of the victims. It is posturing.

  I have already explained everything else in your post at some length.
• 

  cofty

  Parents don't say that - but they do forgive their child and send them to their room, or put them in time out, or any number of punishments.

  No. You either punish or you forgive. Or you punish and then you forgive.

  If beating the child to death would make their claimed forgiveness a lie, then how do other punishments not do the same?

  Choosing not to be eaten up with hatred and lust for revenge is not forgiveness.
• 

  bafh

  ok. well, I guess I don't agree with your assessment. What right do you or any of us have have to judge? None from my point of view. Doing so just makes you appear immature, small minded and petty.

  You seem very dogmatic and rigid. Life must be so much easier in black and white.
• 

  cofty

  bafh - Maybe you need to learn how to engage in a mature conversation about the meaning of forgiveness rather than resort to facile personal attacks when somebody doesn't agree with you.
• 

  bafh

  It was not an attack, it is my opinion of the qualities that you are presenting in your argument. I happen to think that your opinion is narrow, immature and petty. That isn't a personal attack on you. It is you presenting a very black and white world view that is dogmatic and rigid.

  I did engage in mature conversation. My question is "what right do you have or any of us have to judge?" has not yet been addressed. and you throw out an example of how a parent would interact with a child which is not relevant to the event being discussed.

  No. You either punish or you forgive. Or you punish and then you forgive.

  You seem pretty stuck on this point - that it is one or the other - but then contradict yourself and are dogmatic about what the "right" order is. What do you base this on?

  In my world, there is forgiveness and consequences. They are not mutually exclusive or even remotely related to another, and are not required to be done in any particular order.
• 

  Ucantnome

  baft is 'your world' a christian view? Just wondering.