PEDOPHILES are to WTS as flies are to honey?

by Focus 173 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

Focus

Xandit wrote:
> I realize that talking to you is a waste of breath so I won't waste any more of my time or breath.
And a while later, in a separate post addressed to me, Xandit wrote:
> Wow, you found two cases out of a few billion. That's what I call representative
Do you change your mind so rapidly on every subject, Xandit? It may account for the bipolarity, but the blackwhite and doublethink syndromes you manifest suggest significant damage has already occurred through the cognitive dissonance which you stoically endure.
<b>Just in case</b> anyone is fooled by Xandit's impudent argument by ad hominem and proof by assertion:
(a) however many cases I quoted, he would claim they were unrepresentative;
(b) his use of "two billion" shows either his idiocy or his trolldom or both;
(c) his snipping of all my refutations of him, and exposure of his numerous errors, shows his dishonesty.
One might conclude you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses, Xandit. You seem to be displaying an Intelligence Quotient right in their prime target range
--
Focus
(Edom-Idumea Class)
Focus

expatbrit516 interjected:
> Hi Friend:
> One question for you:
> Are you referring to the WT's formal written policy, or to the WT's informal unwritten policy?
Don't cause Friend too much of an overload, expat... Trying to be a nice guy and a JW at the same time is hard enough for him We wouldn't want him to unravel himself, would we, now?
--
Focus
(Dealing with Doublethinkers Class)
Friend

Focus
If a JW witnesses another JW commit a murder, is it absolutely required by Watchtower policy for them to right away they report what they saw to law enforcement officials?
So far as I know, no. Now, you tell me, what does your question have to do with Society policy regarding hindering or discouraging the reporting of serious criminal actions?
As worded, or otherwise asking the same basic thing, my question gets to the heart of your errant assertions on this thread. For a fact Witnesses are free to report serious criminal behavior to law enforcement authorities without fear of reprisals, at least any reprisal resulting from existing Society policy. On the other hand, your question does not at all address the very question of your assertions on this thread!
When it comes to serious crime the Society actually encourages that Witnesses report it to legitimate secular authorities charged with dealing with it. For example:
If the rape happened recently, friends can help the victim get medical help and can offer a safe place to stay. Encourage her to report the rape, but let her make the decisions. She has just come from a situation where she was stripped of all control. Allow her to take some of that control back by letting her choose what to do next.—How to Cope With Rape, Awake! 1993, 3/8: 10. (Emphasis added)
Expatbrit
Are you referring to the WT's formal written policy, or to the WT's informal unwritten policy?
When it comes to serious criminal actions, I am referring to the Society’s only policy.
Friend
Focus

Friend:
Focus: "If a JW witnesses another JW commit a murder, is it absolutely required by Watchtower policy for them to right away report what they saw to law enforcement officials?"
> So far as I know, no.
Good. You managed to get the answer correct. Now reply to #2:
"If a JW becomes aware that another JW may have committed a murder, is it required by Watchtower policy for them to report this to any secular official?"
> Now, you tell me, what does your question have to do with Society policy regarding hindering or discouraging the reporting of serious criminal actions?
Are you playing dumb (over and above the level of stupidity required to keep you in the Cult of Fools, that is), Friend? It has every bit as much to do with the matter as did your question - and a bit more too.
Your question was: Are they absolutely required not to whistle-blow in the case of observing a murder? My answer: No. My (first) question was: Are they required to so do? Your answer: No.
We all know that the JW is conditioned to doing what (s)he is told. The endless rule changes, tacking, to-ing and fro-ing, New lighting flashing at epilepsy-inducing frequencies, no one knowing quite where "present truth" lies - all with the fear of disfellowshiping and the mad killer g(G)od swooping down any moment to exact punishment, the worship of mythical purity, repetition, falsification, weasel-wording, "we never said QUITE that"ing, etc. - makes the JW extremely unwilling to use his/her initiative on anything important. It is just too risky for them, poor lost souls.
So, my question is the key one, given that you tacked off with your's. "Are they required to". Not your's - "are they prohibited from".
Try to comprehend the difference between your "prohibit" and the word used by the JW attorney, "discourage", to which I addressed myself. And is the JW, to whom has been repeatedly and incessantly stressed the need for congregational unity (do you really want a dozen quotes on this?) and for not damaging the good name of Jehovah and his congregation, expected that at a time of great stress and trauma going to detect fine constitutional nuances between conflicting Watchtower messages, eh?
That is but one of a range of refutations available to me, but I am so enraged at the audacity of what follows some way further down in your post that I am finding it deucedly hard to be civil to you.
"at least any reprisal resulting from existing Society policy"
WHAT POLICY? The written or the unwritten?? "Spoiling the congregation's name"... How many have we heard of who have tried to put right the wrongs perpetrated by JWs or the WTBTS, and got excommunicated for their pains???
How long will silentlambs last, eh?
Why do so many keep their identity private, eh?
WHY DO YOU KEEP IT PRIVATE, EH, "FRIEND"? LOL!
So save me your pious defense of a WTBTS that DOES NOT EXIST I am dealing with the FILTHY DEPRAVED WHORE that she is, not the mythic legend of your sick fantasy. Got it? I am not as easily fobbed off as some may be by your disgraceful apologia, Friend. Mend your ways, lest you come to a sticky end.
> When it comes to serious crime the Society actually encourages that Witnesses report it to legitimate secular authorities charged with dealing with it. For example:
If the rape happened recently, friends can help the victim get medical help and can offer a safe place to stay. Encourage her to report the rape, but let her make the decisions. She has just come from a situation where she was stripped of all control. Allow her to take some of that control back by letting her choose what to do next.—How to Cope With Rape, Awake! 1993, 3/8: 10. (Emphasis added)
I find it utterly despicable of you to even dream of using such an example, knowing what you do about this subject.
How can the poor JW possibly rely on the burburations of the disgraceful Watchtower on the subject of conduct by the victim of rape when the Watchtower's incredibly shabby record on this subject is almost impossible for an outsider to believe?
Here it is - the FINE ADVICE of LOVING MOTHER of the sort that Friend wants you to follow, dear child:
No. If you don't scream you won't be disfellowshipped.
Prior to January 15, 1964

YES! SCREAM/RESIST OR BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED!!
Watchtower, January 15, 1964, p. 63

No. If you don't scream you won't be disfellowshipped.
Aid to Bible Understanding, 1969, pp. 601, 1371

YES! SCREAM/RESIST OR BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED!!
Awake!, March 8, 1974, p. 14

No. If you don't scream you won't be disfellowshipped.
Awake, July 8, 1980, pp. 5-6

YES! SCREAM/RESIST OR BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED!!
Watchtower, October 15, 1980, p. 7

No. If you don't scream you won't be disfellowshipped.
Watchtower, March 15, 1983, p. 30

YES! SCREAM/RESIST OR BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED!!
Awake!, February 22, 1984

No. If you don't scream you won't be disfellowshipped.
June 8, 1984 (just 15 weeks later)

YES! SCREAM/RESIST OR BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED!!
May 22, 1986, p. 23

No. If you don't scream you won't be disfellowshipped.
Awake!, September 22, 1986, p. 28

YES! SCREAM/RESIST OR BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED!!
(Doctrine not yet in force.. pending flickering new light from the "holy spirit").
So take your pious claims about the sound, caring, wise advice from the Watchtower on the subject of conduct by the victim of rape (who at most times has probably been too terrified to report it at all, given what will ensue at the hands of the elders), F iend, and SHOVE IT WHERE THE SUN DOES NOT SHINE Clear enough?
Truly, you disgust me - unless you are truly a wholly deluded fool who somehow manages to see some good where true wickedness resides (in which case, I pity you, and suggest you seek counselling as a matter of extreme urgency). You may have duped AF and others into believing that you are basically a "good egg" - but I see in your reply something truly FOUL, EVIL, and DESPICABLE.
It wasn't your cousin who lost her life because she repeatedly resisted that armed rapist, believing - poor, sweet. deluded dove - that to do otherwise would bring her into God's disfavor now, was it, """Fiend"""? Get lost, you pontificating bounder!
Why do I ""hate"" (only as per Biblical injunction, do note) you? Because another like her might be reading your filthy spiritual ejaculate, and - fooled by your tone of apparent reason and humility - might stay on within the CULT OF LIES, and die by refusing a blood transfusion - or by complying with whatever other insane WTBTS policy is in force at the time... And his or her blood will be on your hands, """Fiend""".
Nothing personal. But when you solicit for a Depraved Whore, expect
some feedback delivered where it works best.
The Watchtower Society and the Creed of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a CHEAT, a 100% SCAM, a WICKED TRICK, a FILTHY LIE, a BLASPHEMOUS INSULT, a SCANDAL, a FRAUD, a DISGRACE, an ABOMINATION - and a DAMNED OUTRAGE from start to finish.
"Get out of the Foul Whore!!!"
--
Focus
(R-A-G-E Class)
Edited by - Focus on 3 March 2001 1:7:13
TR

,
the injured party would want to take into consideration whether it would be worth the time and expense as well as whether the congregation could still come into disrepute by bringing to public attention the actions of one of its former members. If the wronged Christian conscientiously felt that God's name would not be reproached and legal action was definitely needed, he would not necessarily be acting contrary to the spirit of Paul's counsel if he were to take to court one who was no longer a part of the Christian congregation . Jehovah God has permitted secular authority to serve as his instrument in bringing lawbreakers to justice, and in this case the one wronged would be availing himself of legal help after exhausting the intracongregational means to have the wrong corrected. -Rom. 13:3,4. "
The WTS cares first and foremost about it's own ass. The implied if not obvious WT law is that no matter what crime happens, it is to be delt within the congregation first. This gives credense to the idea that the WTS purpousely harbors pedophiles, as well as other criminals. It has been proved over and over again that the WTS has no business in the counceling and policing business.
TR
Focus

the injured party would want to take into consideration .. whether the congregation could still come into disrepute by bringing to public attention the actions of one of its former members. If the wronged Christian conscientiously felt that God's name would not be reproached and legal action was definitely needed, he would not necessarily be acting contrary to the spirit of Paul's counsel .. the one wronged would be availing himself of legal help after exhausting the intracongregational means to have the wrong corrected. -Rom. 13:3,4."
TR quoth:
> The WTS cares first and foremost about it's own ass. The implied if not obvious WT law is that no matter what crime happens, it is to be delt within the congregation first.
> This gives credense to the idea that the WTS purpousely harbors pedophiles, as well as other criminals.
[x] TR has understood.
[x] TR has understood perfectly
[ ] "Friend" has understood.
--
Focus
(Allocating Marx to the Brothers Class)
Edited by - Focus on 3 March 2001 1:47:12
JT

Focus says:
The Watchtower Society and the Creed of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a CHEAT, a 100% SCAM, a WICKED TRICK, a FILTHY LIE, a BLASPHEMOUS INSULT, a SCANDAL, a FRAUD, a DISGRACE, an ABOMINATION - and a DAMNED OUTRAGE from start to finish.
#######
Now will you tell us how you really feel- smile
your post was interesting esp the court matter- from the w73 11/15 703-4 Questions from Readers
while i agree with Bro X that the particular article you quoted mainly dealt with civil matters and not child abuse
BUT!!!!!!!!! what is does do is create a MINDSET in JW
This article accomplishes a number of things and is used by any good "Society Man" as ref material when a jw is considering taking a fellow jw TO COURT
1. It makes the judges look like fools and are in no way qualified unlike the "Volunteer and untrained elders" that JR Brown says runs all the congo around the world
. notice here:
##########"The judges would be men who were not governed by the lofty principles of God's law and whose consciences were not trained through a study of his Word"
"Were Christians to take their disputes before such men, they would be 'putting in as judges' men whom the congregation looked down upon as lacking integrity"#######
can you see Bro Olsen or Big William Bell standing before a judge who just read that according to the WT he as a judge doesn't allow the bible to gov his life-
they might not want the judge to see that PC of work from the Writing Dept- smile
2. Action should only be brought against former members not current members- reason being the person should accept the decision of the elders:
#### "the actions of one of its former members" ##############
#### "one who was no longer a part of the Christian congregation " ############
3. they are instillling in thier members that NOTHING should be done if it will make the Org look bad even if you have been wronged TAKE IT LIKE A MAN AND GRIND AND BEAR IT
######## "the injured party would want to take into consideration whether it would be worth the time and expense as well as whether the congregation could still come into disrepute by bringing to public attention " #################
4. Don't you even think about going to court until you have cleared it with the "Volunteer and Untrained Elders" acording to JR
#### " after exhausting the intracongregational means" ##########
i recall these 2 white bro back in my congo in NC who tried to do it wt way-- they were business men with big bucks and the elders who had to handle the case were 2 uneducated black bros and a third "red neck' white bro
they knew absolutely NOTHING about contracts and legal documents and legal Jargon
yet they were expected to try and read thru all that legal stuff and come to a decsion on who was to do whatand who was in the wrong
it was a "DAMN JOKE"
THOSE 2 white bro realized that these clowns despite their Spirit appointment were simply out of thier league so they went to court and it was a scene ESP being from a little town, BUT it shows that WT will take Untrained men and put them in a position to make decsion and they are totally lost
i can only imagine what it must be like in some back woods congo in africa or latin america
not to dog the bro there but my point is just cause you "Slept at a Best Western" doesn't make you qualifed to seat on cases that the WT calls for it's elders to do
just my 2
james
So after years of having it pounded into thier heads that any problems in the hall are to be handled by the "Volunteer and Untrained elders"
and if it will make the Org look bad then you need to reconsider, it has layed the Ground work for what would we see happened with the child abuse cases
bro Jones had his hand down the panties of little mary, the elders meet with him
he had said he was sorry, they felt that he had works that BEFIT REPENTANCE
HE WAS NOT df BUT Privately reproved- the sister was told that the elders had handle the matter
she asked the elders if she could go to the Police, they told her that it was a personal decision, but she needed to consider somethings
so they got the bound vol out in fact they used w73 11/15 703-4 Questions from Readers
they EXPLAINED TO HER that this article dealt with Civil cases BUT THE PRINCIPAL was the same in that you will be taking your case before a Worldly judge who may not be favorable toward jw and keep in mind how it will affect the name of the congo and how hard it will be to go out in service when this hits the papers
but sister it is your choice WINK WINK
SO while i agree 100% with Bro X that the article deals with civil cases-
this is just another example of the "WE DIDN'T TELL YOU NOT TO GO TO COLLEGE" type articles
just my 2
JT
JT

tr says
It has been proved over and over again that the WTS has no business in the counceling and policing business.
#############
well stated indeed- this takes us back to the admission that JR did to the papers that the elders are Volunteers and an Untrained
when you consider the quality of elders in some 3rd world coutry where he graduated top in his 5th grade class- it becomes very easy to see why wt is in trouble they have put men at the Helm whose only
claim to glory is that they are HIgh Hour publishers- smile
they they are called on to render Life and death matters
how sad
JT
larc

JT,
It is good to have you back posting. It's been awhile. I like what you have said on several counts. For one, you were in high places and you know how the BS works. Second, you know how to read between the lines and know what that shit really means, something that people like RidingLikeJehu and Xandit just don't get. (I probably shouldn't have said that, because I have been getting along with them lately). Third, you have savy, or "street smarts" that some peopple just don't have, and is a necessary ingediant in getting the full picture.
After I left, I got my street smarts by hanging out after work at the local neighborhood bar, where I learned how real people lived. They had their own rules, and they temporarily "barred" people, but they were welcome back if they behaved themselves. As a group, they were nice people. I kind of rambled there at the end, but anyway, keep up the good work.
Focus

The Watchtower Society and the Creed of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a CHEAT, a 100% SCAM, a WICKED TRICK, a FILTHY LIE, a BLASPHEMOUS INSULT, a SCANDAL, a FRAUD, a DISGRACE, an ABOMINATION - and a DAMNED OUTRAGE from start to finish.
JT opined:
> Now will you tell us how you really feel- smile
> the particular article you quoted mainly dealt with civil matters and not child abuse [Emphasis added by Focus]
I agree that was probably the intention of the writers. But when you are writing knowing that millions will swallow your pap as if the very hand of God had caused it to be written, breathed through the nostrils of God into you (fools don't know what "inspired" means) and so on, you should get it absolutely right! So if they intended this NOT to apply to criminal matters, they should have said so.
Actually, I think they couldn't have cared less. THEIR ONLY INTENTION WAS:
***************************************
WE DON'T CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU, BUT
DON'T SPOIL THE NAME OF THE WATCHTOWER.
***************************************
> BUT!!!!!!!!! what is does do is create a MINDSET in JW
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!
> This article accomplishes a number of things and is used by any good "Society Man" as ref material when a jw is considering taking a fellow jw TO COURT
.. FOR ANY REASON. EXACTLY.
> 1. It makes the judges look like fools and are in no way qualified unlike the "Volunteer and untrained elders" that JR Brown says runs all the congo around the world
EXACTLY. And the same "sort" or "kind" of judges will preside over suings and prosecutions - they all come from Satan's wicked system of things (teacheth Mother)
> "The judges would be men who were not governed by the lofty principles of God's law and whose consciences were not trained through a study of his Word"
> "Were Christians to take their disputes before such men, they would be 'putting in as judges' men whom the congregation looked down upon as lacking integrity"
> can you see Bro Olsen or Big William Bell standing before a judge who just read that according to the WT he as a judge doesn't allow the bible to gov his life-
> they might not want the judge to see that PC of work from the Writing Dept- smile
I think you are being a bit advanced for "F iend", JT
> 2. Action should only be brought against former members not current members- reason being the person should accept the decision of the elders:
EXACTLY. And the same sort of inaction will be required in criminal as well as in civil proceedings
>"the actions of one of its former members"
>"one who was no longer a part of the Christian congregation"
> 3. they are instillling in thier members that NOTHING should be done if it will make the Org look bad even
> if you have been wronged TAKE IT LIKE A MAN AND GRIND AND BEAR IT
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! And even the most braindead dolt - or sweet, indoctrinated teenager - knows that a criminal prosecution for child abuse against one of God's People will do a lot more damage than a civil action for breach of an ambiguous contract!
> "the injured party would want to take into consideration whether it would be worth the time and expense as well as whether the congregation could still come into disrepute by bringing to public attention"
But don't expect DISGUSTING APOLOGISTS like "F iend" to admit to that, eh?
> 4. Don't you even think about going to court until you have cleared it with the "Volunteer and Untrained Elders" acording to JR
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! And almost any child molestation victim with some common sense would be TERRIFIED of having the elders involved - knowing what would follow. With no certainty of a DFing - the need for a witness, for example. And the untrained nature of the so-called "judges" - as well as there bias, and their not unlikely membership of the WOLF CLASS themselves!
>"after exhausting the intracongregational means"
Quite.
>i recall these 2 white bro back in my congo in NC who tried to do it wt way-- they were business men with big bucks and the
> elders who had to handle the case were 2 uneducated black bros and a third "red neck' white bro
> they knew absolutely NOTHING about contracts and legal documents and legal Jargon
> yet they were expected to try and read thru all that legal stuff and come to a decsion on who was to do what
> and who was in the wrong
> it was a "DAMN JOKE"
But .. didn't the Holy Spirit swoop into the room with a bolt of fizzle-pop - and spark up the electrical gadgets?
> THOSE 2 white bro realized that these clowns despite their Spirit appointment were simply out of thier league
> so they went to court and it was a scene ESP being from a little town, BUT it shows that WT will take Untrained
> men and put them in a position to make decsion and they are totally lost
> i can only imagine what it must be like in some back woods congo in africa or latin america
Please - NC is far less advanced, from what I read anyway. People's thinking ability is largely not a function of geography.
> not to dog the bro there but my point is just cause you "Slept at a Best Western" doesn't make you qualifed to seat
> on cases that the WT calls for it's elders to do
.. or proffer medical advice - even if it does not involve aluminum!
> So after years of having it pounded into thier heads that any problems in the hall are to be handled by the "Volunteer and Untrained elders"
> and if it will make the Org look bad then you need to reconsider, it has layed the Ground work for what would we see happened with the child abuse cases
> bro Jones had his hand down the panties of little mary, the elders meet with him
> he had said he was sorry, they felt that he had works that BEFIT REPENTANCE
> HE WAS NOT df BUT Privately reproved- the sister was told that the elders had handle the matter
> she asked the elders if she could go to the Police, they told her that it was a personal decision, but she needed to consider somethings
Indeed! And using her "Bible-trained conscious [sic]"
> so they got the bound vol out in fact they used w73 11/15 703-4 Questions from Readers
> they EXPLAINED TO HER that this article dealt with Civil cases BUT THE PRINCIPAL was the same
Indeed, they may well be giving sound advice there! In the absence of clear rules to the contrary (i.e. mandating disclosure to authorities, in a criminal 'case'), a judge would look to rules "of that type" was one dealing with interpreting a body of legislation and case law. For example, if a contract says "You must not keep a horse or a donkey on this land" and no more on that subject, but the too-clever tenant keeps "an ass" (Yo! Friend!!), the Judge will likely rule the said ass is of the same kind as the horse and donkey.. - we know how the WTS is about "kind"s... LOL!
This rule of interpretation in this way is referred to as "ejusdem generis" - it sounds fancier in Latin It is the Principle that counts.
To resolve ambiguity, the judge will also look to the manifest intention of the ambiguous-statute-maker. And here, the stressed intention is to protect the good name of the congregation After all - THEY SAID IT! TWICE IN JUST ONE QUOTE! (And - I have other quotes too )
Simply no question about it. Only an ass would argue further.
> in that you will be taking
> your case before a Worldly judge who may not be favorable toward jw and keep in mind how it will affect the name of the congo
> and how hard it will be to go out in service when this hits the papers but sister it is your choice
EXACTLY.
[x] JT has understood.
[x] "F iend" does not wish to understand.
> this is just another example of the "WE DIDN'T TELL YOU NOT TO GO TO COLLEGE" type articles
Correct.
And I am disgusted that Friend has come out of the woodwork to apologize for the scum on this one - AND TEN TIMES WORSE TO QUOTE WTBTS COUNSEL GIVEN TO RAPE VICTIMS (given their disgraceful record here) in support of his legalistic contentions, which disregard the REAL WTBTS and focus only on his make-believe, fairy-tale Society that keeps him warm in bed - while his fellow Brothers are busy molesting kids, knowing that the policies of the WTBTS are as if they were designed to SHIELD PEDOPHILES
Shame on you, Friend. Having the brains to see the FILTHY, PUS-FILLED PAPS OF THE WHORE for what they are - and to continue FEEDING and VENDING the FILTH.
SHAME ON YOU, ""F iend"!
>JT
--
Focus
(Righteous Requirements - Godly Revenge! Class)
Edited by - Focus on 3 March 2001 2:59:47

PEDOPHILES are to WTS as flies are to honey?

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