Daniel chap. 8, Auth. King Farkel version

by Nathan Natas 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    I hope Farkel won't kick my ass too high or too far for posting this here, but I don't recall seeing it here anytime recently, and it is just SOOOOO much fun.

    I'm concerned though, that Farkel's affection for Fred Franz may be dangerously close to the infatuation point. He has the Fred Franz action figure, I hear.

    - - -

    Daniel 8 for Dummies - Introduction: "The Powers of the Dark Side"
    by Farkel

    The two articles I'm going to present are going to be an indictment of Fred William Franz. I consider Franz to be the second most evil man in Watchtower history, next to Joseph Franklin Rutherford, if you measure the term "evil" not only by motive and action, but by the sheer numbers of people adversely affected from it.

    When people were in his presence, Franz's good sense of humor, apparent modesty and geeky way of dressing made him instantly likeable: up until the instant you crossed him or one of his interpretations, according to his nephew Raymond Franz. Then Fred Franz became downright hostile towards you.

    There is no doubt that Franz was a very intelligent man. There is also no doubt that he used his intelligence and powers of persuasion (not to mention his position of authority) to force lies he KNEW were lies down the throats of people who clung to his every thought as being divinely directed and inspired. Why would he do this? He would do this in order to make the JW masses think that Corporate decisions and Corporate fantasies of the WTS were in harmony with the Bible.

    Before we get on to Daniel chapter 8, let's take a few examples of what I'm talking about.

    Page 198 of the 2nd edition of Crisis of Conscience discusses 1975 (you know, that FAILED Fred Franz apocalyptic fantasy). Paragraph 4 of that book states: "Bill Jackson smilingly said to me (Ray Franz), "We used to say, you just take the date from this shoulder and put it on the other shoulder." Can you consider how cavalier such an attitude was considering the fact that millions of people lived and died based upon those dates, and millions of people made lifelong (and bad) decisions based upon those dates that were casually tossed from "shoulder" to "shoulder" as people like Jackson "smiled?"

    From 1918 and for the next quarter of a century, Jehovah's Witnesses were told that Jehovah had faithfully promised the resurrection to earth of the ancient prophets and that this would happen before Armageddon. Jehovah's Witnesses were thrilled to know that "Jehovah" had lovingly provided a beautiful mansion in San Diego for them to enjoy after their resurrection. Countless tens of thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses had foregone marriage and children because of this "prophecy" and countless tens of thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses went to their graves single and without children because of the failure of this prophecy. Why?

    A.H. MacMillan ("Faith on the March") who served in Bethel under 3 Watchtower presidents and died as a faithful JW tells us why. He said that Beth-Sarim was built "for no purpose other than to get the drunken and declining Rutherford out of Brooklyn." Note the words: "no other purpose" than to deal with an abusive alcoholic. Very revealing about the true character of the man Franz, isn't it?

    Haydn Covington, also a long-time ranking member of the Bethel family quoted Fred Franz as saying, "they built the judge a house out in California just to get him out of Bethel." MacMillan also stated that it was Franz that "concocted the cover story...saying that the house was for the ancient prophets due back 'any day' in the pre-Armageddon resurrection." Yet, all along Fred Franz clearly knew that house was build for "no other purpose" than to get one substance abuser out of the hair of the other Corporate liars, yet he "concocted" a "story", a LIE which was presented as coming from Jehovah himself for "spiritual" consumption by the believing masses.

    Do you think that from these examples I've just mentioned that Franz had any respect for the Bible? Do you think that anyone who "concocts" a "cover story" from the Bible to solve a short-term human problem has any respect for the book he is entrusted to interpret for millions of people? Do you think that a person who would callously manipulate these people who've give him the full trust of their futures and their family's futures in order to solve the problems caused by one drunk man deserves any respect? I don't. I despise the man for what he has done to millions of people. I despise his arrogance. I despise his dishonesty and his hypocrisy.

    One time Ray Franz asked Fred about who specifically Fred thought was the "Faithful and Discreet Slave." Franz answered that he thought he himself was one of them. When pressed further to name a few other names, Franz would not do it. He would not identify even ONE other person besides himself as being a member of the FDS! Does not such an attitude from a man who was solely responsible for prophetic interpretation for all JWs throughout the world DISGUST you? It disgusts me.

    Does it not disgust you that a never-married, VIRGIN (likely) childless old man took it upon himself to dictate in great detail religious rules about sexuality in general, marital sexual practices, and who compared female teenage adolescence to "cows in heat" was actually revered and nearly worshipped by millions?

    Does it not disgust you that this same man was the one who made it an enforced religious policy to severely punish females who were brutally raped but failed to scream out, even if they were threatened with death if they did; yet at the same time this very man meted out the same severe punishment to females who dared divorce their husbands when they found out their husbands were having sexual intercourse with four legged BEASTS or MEN?

    I think I'm going to puke, so enough of this. Let's take a trip into another aspect of sheer Fred Franz insanity. This trip will be a lot more fun than the stuff I've just mentioned. It will be a true yet farcical trip of "Franz in Wonderland." We are going to see the "Deep Things(tm)" and "True Meaning(tm)" of Daniel chapter 8, ala' that great story teller, Fredrick William Franz.

    Daniel 8 For Dummies - Part 2: "The Watchtower Strikes Back"

    I've posted this one before, but it's been updated and is especially geared for you true believing dubbies out there. What I'm going to discus is important even though you may not have the attention span to digest it, because THIS is your religion and what it still teaches. THIS is about a man who was the defacto spiritual LEADER of your religion for over seventy years and who is almost solely responsible for all post-Rutherford doctrine, exegesis and prophetic interpretation. If you want to be in religion, you'd best know as much about it as you can. Or do you want to be characterized like Jack Nicholson when he said, "You can't handle the truth?"

    Your call.

    The totally crackpot doctrine I'm going to present is still official doctrine of the Watchtower society, although it is rarely mentioned anymore (for good reason).

    Anyone familiar with the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses knows that their leaders are the most self-aggrandizing and arrogant people one could ever imagine. They teach that just about everything in the Bible that is obviously not talking about wicked ones is ultimately fulfilled in THEMSELVES and themselves only. For around four thousand years, people have been reading the scriptures and trying to understand what they mean, but for almost that entire four thousand years the meaning of those scriptures have not been understood, and those people, those HUNDREDS of generations of people died without having a clue as to their meaning. For some strange reason God caused a book to be written and then let hundreds of generations of people read it without having a clue what it meant. Odd, isn't it?

    Then, along comes the THEOCRATIC Watchtower Printing Company(tm) and everything falls into place! The major prophet Ezekiel pictured THEM. Isaiah pictured THEM. Jeremiah pictured THEM. Elijah pictured THEM. Elisha pictured THEM. Ruth pictured THEM. Naomi pictured THEM. John the Revelator pictured THEM. The ark that allegedly preserved the human race pictured THEM. Jesus' parables pointed to THEM. Major portions of the Revelation pointed to THEM. The seven mighty trumpet blasts in Revelation pointed to THEM and their puny little gatherings in the 1920's (which no one except themselves cared the least bit about). And on it goes. Here we have a book thousands of years old which everywhere within its pages supposedly "prophesied" about the leaders of a totally insignificant religion that can't get ANY prophecy of its own right, gets into tax trouble, abuses its membership on a daily basis, and hates everyone but themselves, including the governments that have protected and ensured that freedom to hate.

    It never ceases to amaze me how the WTS can teach that some puny little events in their history can be believed to be fulfillments of major Bible prophecies. Prophecies written thousands of years ago and understood by no one but THEM also nearly always are FULFILLED by THEM! How they can rationally think that their tiny little membership is viewed as making earth-shaking history so important that God caused the Bible to foretell them hundreds of generations ago is the most ridiculous type of narcissism imaginable.

    It would take an entirely different essay to point to all of the examples where the society teaches that Bible prophecy was directly and finally fulfilled at this assembly or that assembly or in this issue of the Watchtower magazine or that book published by the society. I'm going to only discuss one example in this article. It's a really stupid and convoluted example, too.

    The "fulfillment" of this prophecy is no doubt little known or understood by the vast majority of Jehovah's witnesses. The explanation of this prophecy is very "deep," and I don't mean "spiritually deep," either. So, bring your hip-boots along as we go through it. You'll need them.

    In the shortest possible summary, this prophecy starts by "foretelling" one of the greatest warriors in world history, Alexander the Grape, works its way through the great Roman Empire forward to the great American/British empire, two world wars and after all of this greatness is finally culminated and thus "fulfilled" in the fall of 1944, when a very minor, insignificant and irritating little religious sect decided to make a few changes in its Corporate Charter! Yup, I'm not kidding!

    Daniel 8 is discussed in the "Your Will" book and the December 1, 1971 Watchtower, if you'd like to read the entire text of this wacky interpretation yourself. But I'm warning you, it is tough to wade through the convoluted and bizarre "logic" of Freddie. If you decide to tackle the material yourself, I suggest that you first mix 4 liters of "Jolt Cola" and two boxes of "No-Doze" together. Stir gingerly. Put them in an intravenous feeding bag. Hang bag. Attach needle to arm. Then read. You still might not make through both articles without going into a class "A" coma, though. If you try to make sense of every single argument Franz presents, you could be subject to an extended stay in an institution for the tragically insane.

    The Prophecy

    Daniel saw a ram with two horns. He also saw a goat with a horn between his eyes. The horn could talk! The goat approaches the ram and messes him up, breaking the ram's horns off in the process. The goat tosses the ram down to earth and the ram is toast. Goat =1. Ram=0.

    The goat with the talking horn was pretty cocky and put on airs, but eventually because it was so cocky its horn also got broken off. Next, four horns grew out of its head. One of the horns was smaller than the rest.

    Not learning its lesson which caused it to lose its first horn, the horn kept yakking and gaining power, all the way up to the "army of the heavens," knocking from the heavens and trampling down some of this "army" and "stars" in the process.

    The yakking horn kept yakking and got clear up to the "Prince of the army." Mr. Horn cleverly "took away" this thing called a "constant feature" and the "established place" of the Prince's "sanctuary was thrown down."

    Next, Daniel hears the voice of a "certain holy one" speaking to another "holy one". One of them asks this question, "How long will the vision be of the constant (feature) and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both (the) holy place and (the) army things to trample on?"

    To that "certain holy one": it is bad form to end a sentence in preposition.

    Seriously, the answer to that question was the "holy place" would be again restored in 2,300 days.

    (Fred Franz's insane "calculations" of the starting and ending dates of the 2,300 days is the topic of Part III - "The Return of the Red-Eye")

    Some guy from Ulai (he must have been from Hawaii) hollered at Gabriel and asked him to explain the whole thing to Daniel. I guess Daniel didn't understand what the heck the other guy was talking about. Duh!

    Gabriel started to explain the meaning of the vision, but it must have been pretty boring to Daniel, because part way through the explanation, Daniel fell asleep! (Perhaps the reason for Daniel falling asleep was the explanation was given to him in a place known as a "Kingdom Hall.") After Gabriel woke him up, he told Daniel that the ram with the two horns represented the kings of Media and Persia. The goat with the single horn was the king of Greece. After the goat's horn was broken, the four horns that grew in its place would be four kingdoms that would arise in the place of the king of Greece.

    Freddie's Explanation

    The goat which conquered Media and Persia was Alexander the Grape, and when he died his kingdom was split into four Hellenic Kingdoms.

    Ok, that's a pretty reasonable explanation. I'll buy it. But it quickly turns into pure insanity from here.

    The Prophecy

    The "little" horn on the goat kept getting "greater" (vs. 9) towards the "Decoration."

    Freddie's Explanation

    Because verse 19 states that this prophecy was for the "appointed time of the end," Freddie assumed there must be two fulfillments, with the latter fulfillment being in our day. Freddie was simply incapable of considering that he shouldn't try to turn every Biblical prophecy into one that had more than a single, simple and logical fulfillment. No! He loved to complicate every verse he could get his hands on! It was unthinkable to him that the "end" could have been the end of an age, empire, or culture. No! It HAD to be the end of the of all ends that would usher in a new world for all of mankind, er I mean a new world for the benefit of Jehovah's Witnesses only. All other humans would end up being toasted.

    So somehow he had to take the simple explanation given by Gabriel and use that as a "starting point" and by twisting and turning from that starting point he could weave a convoluted thread of history up to the modern day.

    His reasoning in a nutshell is this: The four Greek kingdoms after the death of Alexander the great were conquered by Rome and the Roman Empire had provinces in Britain. The British Empire succeeded the Roman Empire as a world power. Therefore, the "little horn" part of the prophecy was finally fulfilled with the arrival of the British/American Empire.

    The problem here is that in verse 19 Gabriel specifically told Daniel that he would explain this prophecy right then and there, and he immediately did this starting with the very next verse. Gabriel says, "Here I am causing YOU to KNOW what will occur in the final part of the denunciation, BECAUSE it is for the appointed time of the end."

    Is there anywhere in that chapter where Gabriel says to Daniel, "By the way, Danny, this prophecy will have TWO fulfillments and will ultimately be fulfilled by a tiny religion two thousand five hundred years from now because they made some small changes in their business charter?" No! He didn't say that! But Freddy thought he MEANT that!

    Later, in verse 26, Gabriel says, "And you, keep secret the vision, because it is yet for MANY DAYS."

    Note for dummies: Gabriel said the prophecy would be fulfilled in "many days," NOT in 2,500 YEARS or 912,000 (almost a million!) days!

    The Prophecy

    Verses 10 and 11 state that this goat with the little horn kept getting greater and putting on airs. It put on airs all the way to the "Prince of the army," who is also called the "Prince of Princes," and in doing so the "constant feature" of said Prince was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down.

    Freddie's Explanation

    It starts to get good here! Guess who the "Prince of Princes" is? Jesus? Nope. He's "the heavenly THEOCRAT, Jehovah" (paragraph 23 of the above-cited WT article)! How did the Creator get demoted from King of Everything to merely Head Prince? Isn't a Prince lower than a King? Not to Freddie!

    We've got some confusing terms here that merit a confusing explanation. Don't worry. Freddie won't let us down.

    What is the "Decoration" which the "little" horn on the goat kept getting "greater" towards? Freddie explains that this began to happen in 1917 when Britain took Palestine under its control! Freddie uses Ezekiel 20:6, 15 which called the "land flowing with milk and honey" as the "decoration" of all the lands. In attempting to make the prophecy fit his insane interpretation, Freddie attaches great significance to the mere 27 years that Britain controlled Israel, while totally ignoring the fact that for more than 2,000 years before that time the Israelites ALSO had no place to call home and no self-ruler ship!

    Daniel states that the "little horn" or the British/American governments "put on airs" all the way up to the "Prince of the Army" (Jehovah, in case you've forgotten.) The "constant feature" was "taken away" from Jehovah and the "established place of his sanctuary thrown down."

    What does all this mumbo-jumbo mean? Just ask Freddie! The constant feature used to be the twice-daily sacrifices to God made by the high priests of Israel. Today, Freddie tells us this "constant feature" is a message presented by millions of people running around selling magazines and books which, not coincidentally, glorify the leaders of the very organization which publishes those books!

    Who is the "established place of his sanctuary?" Hint: who do the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses apply nearly every scripture in the Bible to? You've got it! The "established place of his sanctuary" is THEMSELVES!

    Next, we will explain for dummies the "true" meaning of the expressions "the "stars that fell to earth," "the transgression that causes desolation," and most importantly, what Daniel's ancient prophecy about the 2,300 evenings and mornings REALLY meant in the eyes of Freddie the Crackpot(tm).

    As has been stated, we learned that Freddie Franz interpreted the "little horn" on the goat in Daniel 8 to be the British/American empire. Daniel 8 is quite specific in stating that the "little horn" was a very bad thing. This means that for anyone to swallow Freddie's interpretation, America and Britain need to be painted in the worst light possible. One finds it hard to imagine how these two countries since the year 1917 can be made to look that bad, especially when compared with the old Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and Imperialistic Japan in the same period. Unfortunately, those other empires don't square with Freddie's fantasies of interpretation.

    Well, let's just see how "bad" Franz tries to make the Americans and British look.

    In verse 27 of Daniel chapter 8, Daniel mentioned that after hearing the explanation of the prophesy that he was "made sick for some days." That's exactly how I felt when Freddie explained it all to me via this Watchtower. For example, consider this:

    "During World War II the Seventh World Power of Bible history brought many to ruin, yes, even mighty ones. It paid no respect to true Theocracy." (Paragraph 13)

    Hello? He completely ignores the simple fact that Americans and British entered the war out of defense from the genocidal maniacs in Berlin and Tokyo. If he thinks the Americans and Brits "paid no respect to true Theocracy," what kind of respect did he think Hitler, Stalin, and Yamamoto paid? How long do you think he would have been able to write and publish his insane lunacy had Germany/Japan won the war? Well, Freddie had to demonize the very two governments that allowed his printing company to stay in business because he couldn't have used Germany/Japan/Soviet Union as a terminus for the march of world powers.

    Let's hear some of the horrors the Brits and Americans heaped upon the Watchtower society and its faithful members.

    Paragraph 16 states, "The record plainly shows the extent of the wrath of the 'king fierce in countenance.' He struck hard against Jehovah's witnesses world wide during the dark days of World War II, ESPECIALLY SO in countries associated with the British Commonwealth of Nations."

    Translation: "they wouldn't let us sell books."

    Hello? I suppose the Germans, Italians and Japanese welcomed Jehovah's Witnesses anti-government book-selling campaign in their countries with warmest affection during WWII! Duh!

    After mentioning various bans on dubs during the war, Freddie brings up the issue of JW neutrality in Britain, including stating that "most" of 1,593 men and women went to prison over the neutrality issue. Millions of men died doing the dirty work that dubs were not allowed to do and Freddie is whining that mere 1,500 people in Britain spent some time in prison for refusing to do the dirty work.

    I find it quite humorous that this "prophecy" of Freddie's was "fulfilled" in-part because JWs were compelled by their leadership to not take civilian work as conscientious objectors during WWII. Thus they were persecuted and some went to prison, knocking them as "stars" out of the sky. As we now know, the society makes alternative military service completely a matter of conscience now. Therefore, a false and unbiblical doctrine in force in WWII was used by Franz to justify his false and absurd interpretation of a prophecy! Franz at his finest!

    In a nutshell, Freddie argues that the anglo-American "little horn" knocked some of the "stars" or "army" (dubs) out of the sky or "Jehovah's sanctuary" in fulfillment of Daniel 8 by their treatment of some of them during WWII.

    He states, "Certainly, by causing the sacrificial "constant feature" (book selling) to be taken away and then trampling on Jehovah's theocratic "holy place" (Brooklyn) as represented by his anointed remnant of underpriests, the Seventh World Power (not Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Communist Russia, or Pagan Japan) was committing a 'transgression causing desolation.' (In otherwords, it hurt cash-flow.) "It was desolating the earthly interests of Jehovah's theocracy (cash-flow) and temple worship (worship of J.F. Rutherford). It was sacrilegiously 'transgressing' on things holy to Jehovah God (recruiting more book salesman)."

    Freddie then explains that another sin of "transgression causing desolation" was that the Americans and Brits were being in favor of setting up the United Nations, an organization devoted entirely to humanitarian interests and maintaining peace. He calls the United Nations "that idolatrous image for international worship."

    Uh, what was that about that recent ten year "NGO/DPI" membership thing again, folks?

    Freddie says, "Then note what happened with regard to these idolatrous worshipers of a man-made organization for world peace and security." LOLOL! Does anyone know of ANYONE who WORSHIPS the United Nations as an IDOL? I don't. DO I know FIVE MILLION PEOPLE who ARE as Franz states "idolatrous worshipers of a man-made organization for world peace and security," though.

    I also know of a religious printing corporation that SWORE to uphold and PROMOTE the INTERESTS of that man-made institution. Can you guess who that religious corporation might be?

    Let's wrap up this insanity with Freddie's greatest insanity of all: the meaning of the 2,300 days, the end of which is the terminus of the "trampling" on dubs.

    On June 1, 1938 the Watchtower came out with Part One of an article entitled "Organization." On June 15, 1938, Part Two was released. For anyone not familiar with those articles, let me summarize them: it was the final stroke where the society firmly entrenched itself as the undisputed masters of the lives and religious views of its members.

    Here is an example of what I mean straight from Freddie's pen: "In the June 1, 1938 issue of The Watchtower appeared the first part of the article entitled "Organization." It was thrilling for worshipers at Jehovah's sanctuary to read these sentences of the opening paragraph: 'Jehovah's organization is in no wise democratic. Jehovah is supreme, and his government or organization is strictly theocratic. This conclusion is not open to successful contradiction."

    Here is part of the resolution the dubs were forced to swallow: "We, the company of God's people taken out for his name...recognize that God's government is a pure theocracy and that Christ Jesus is at the temple and in full charge and control of the visible organization of Jehovah, as well as the invisible." (Page 182)

    Of course, since the JW organization is not a democracy, the worldwide association of dubs didn't decide this. It was forced right down their throats by the WTS elite.

    Freddie then says, "This called for appointment theocratically FROM THE TOP DOWN, for all officiating servants in all congregations."

    America is a republic with a great form of democratic freedoms. Iran is a pure THEOCRACY. Where would you rather live?

    According to Franz, the counting of the 2,300 evenings and mornings began between June 1, 1938 and June 15, 1938, as a result of those two articles (which he probably also wrote.)

    These 2,300 days of this 2,500 years old prophecy culminated with this earth-shattering event which no doubt was noticed by the entire earth and all those in the heavens:

    "On September 30 through October 2, 1944, a special Service and BUSINESS assembly was held at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA...
    On the opening day the Society's president addressed the gathering of 5,000 on the subject "The Theocratic Alignment Today. The following day the public address was on the subject 'One World, One Government.'...After the Society's directors and its officers were elected by the shareholders there represented, consideration was directed to six amendments that were proposed for the Charter of the Society...The first amendment resolution that was adopted proposed the enlarging of the purposes of the Society so as to assume properly the great worldwide work that lay ahead. Also, this amendment put God's name, Jehovah, into the Charter. (I'm sure that Jehovah was glad that he was finally given a piece of the Corporation.) Amendment Three did away with the original charter's provision that fixed one's membership in the Society on the basis of one's money contributions to the Society ($10.00 per share); henceforth the membership was to be limited to not more than 500, all of whom were to be chosen on the basis of their active service (book selling) to Jehovah."

    Then the October 15, 1944 Watchtower came out with the article "Organized for Final Work."

    The 2,300 days of "desolation were over." A printing corporation was in full charge of the lives of its members. Jehovah was officially made a part of the Watchtower Corporation. In writing and notarize, even! And some changes in a Corporate Charter of a goofy little religion is proof positive that a major prophesy 2,500 years old from a major Biblical prophet was clearly and indisputably fulfilled.

    Farkel

  • Reborn2002
    Reborn2002

    Thank you Nathan for reposting Farkel's comments on Fred Franz and the WTBTS interpretation of Daniel.

    The totally crackpot doctrine I'm going to present is still official doctrine of the Watchtower society, although it is rarely mentioned anymore (for good reason).
    Yep, it sure is still official doctrine. The WTS has not published any literature with "New Light" refuting the "Old Light".

    Few new JW converts in the last 10 years or so know anything about this old absolutely ridiculous biblical interpretation.

    Kudos to you for posting reminders which expose the JW's for the "false prophet" they are and have been time and again.

  • Hmmm
    Hmmm

    False prophets, maybe, but the profits are very real, indeed.

    Hmmm

  • Kaethra
    Kaethra

    I think I'm in love with Farkel. :)

    I remember being in my early teens when we studied the Revelation book at the book study. I was still fully indoctrinated then, but even at that point I thought...the seven trumpet blasts refer to the seven announcements at the Cedar Point Ohio convention??!!! What the F$*k!!??

  • SYN
    SYN

    Nice writeup Farkel! You really hung 'em out to dry, didn't you!

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    So WHO ARE the 500 share-holders! That's what I wanna know.

    .........................It's the silence between the notes, that make the music................
    http://ourworld.cs.com/Pwmkwzy/PlumCrazysHouseOfNuts.html
    http://www.hamcdc.com/sponsor.html
  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Nathan,

    Can I write you a check, or would you prefer small, unmarked bills?

    Farkel

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Just share your Fred Franz action figure with me.

    By the way, I'll bet YOU know who the 500 shareholders are...

  • lauralisa
    lauralisa

    That was inspired.

    Go Farkelmeister. Or I guess I should say "way to go". Whatever... it rocks for moi.

  • ignored_one
    ignored_one

    A question regarding the "newlight/oldlight" business.

    Was anything changed regarding chapter 8 of Daniel in the recent Daniel book?

    Just getting my head round it all.

    Ignored One, (Iggy).

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