Some forgotten statements....

by refiners fire 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Jehovahs Witness prophetic failure is not simply a matter of failed DATES.
    There are a whole lot of other aspects to the prophetic expectation.
    Just with regards to "1975", two aspects immediately spring to mind.
    The decline of world religion and the ensuing ATTACK upon religion by the United Nations.
    Both of these "prerequisites" to the 1975 Armaggedon have now slipped into distant memory, and are now forgotten. They are hardly mentioned any more in Watchtowers.Just to remind doubters what was said....

    WT August 1, 1971:

    19 What has been the truth about the world's religious situation, particularly that of Christendom? In November 1879 The Watch Tower stated: "Every church claiming to be a chaste virgin espoused to Christ, but in reality united to and supported by the world . . . we must condemn as being in scripture language a harlot church. . . . Yes we believe the nominal church of today to be the Babylon of our text, which falls. . . . The fall we expect will not be instantaneous; it will have a beginning and will gather momentum as it falls until it is dashed to pieces."

    That latter quote is from Russell, showing that the WT predicted the drying up of Church attendance way back since 1879, surely proof of their being a True Prophet. It continues:

    Indeed, in the 1950's they experienced what seemed to be a revival of religious interest. Then the Vatican Council in the 1960's was hailed by religious leaders as a great step toward unifying and strengthening the churches. But all during this time Jehovah's witnesses continued to sound the warning that these worldly religions would go out of business, and very soon.
    The evidence is now very clear that what Jehovah's witnesses were saying was the truth.
    They indeed had the guidance of God's holy spirit all the time. Now, all authorities admit that the religions of this world are in deep trouble. They are being abandoned by increasing numbers of people and clergy alike, with financial support dropping"

    Of course all this is such utter BUNK that the Watchtower never mentions the religious decline any more. Religious attendance is booming especially in the charismatic movements Like The A.O.G and the Baptist churches.
    It is estimated that there are now 600 MILLION people associated with Pentecostal churches. A church movement that was born in 1900!!
    So much for the "decline of Christianity".
    Another aspect;

    WT June 1, 1972:

    A most striking characteristic of our times is the decline in world religion. This is seen in the steady decrease in the number attending church...
    The decline in religion is also manifest in its loss of favor in political circles. In many cases this is due to clergy meddling in political affairs. For example, the clergy in white-dominated Rhodesia recently received sharp criticism from Mark Partridge, Minister of Local Government. He complained: "It is a pity that, of late, [the clergy] have become, apparently, more concerned with political problems than with moral ones. . . . How distressed I am to see, on so many occasions, unnecessary and ill-informed participation in the political field."-"Rand Daily Mail," South Africa, March 14, 1972.....
    Brazil and Argentina both have taken action against militant clerics. And recently in the United States there has been a court case involving Catholic priests who are charged with antigovernment activities...
    What is all this leading to? Obviously, political powers are becoming antagonized. Eventually, these will come to the point where they will completely turn against world religion and destroy it as foretold in the Bible in Revelation chapter 17....
    Yes...the famous notion of the U.N attack upon World religion.
    Scarcely mentioned any more. Does anyone see evidence of an imminent U.N attack upon world religion??
  • RR
    RR

    Refiner, that's one of the problems the Society often run into, misquoting okld Watch Towers to support their current views. Let's look at the context of what Russell's wrote:

    Babylon is Fallen.

    "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a
    cage of every unclean and hateful bird." Rev. 18:2.

    The word "Babylon" means confusion. It is here used symbolically,
    since the literal city by that name was at the time of this writing "a
    mass of ruins." The literal city was doubtless a figure or type of the symbolic city, and much of the threatening of Isa. 21, and Jer. 50, and 51, is unquestionably of two-fold application and fulfillment: first, upon literal Babylon, the type and more
    fully upon symbolic Babylon, the antitype. Both are called "Babylon
    the Great." Both rule over the kings of the earth. The literal was
    built upon the river Euphrates and derived wealth and splendor from
    this source. "O thou that dwellest upon many waters." Jer. 51:13.
    The symbolic is said to be "seated upon many waters--peoples, nations
    &c.," from which it derives its support.
    The fall of the literal was by the turning aside of the waters, and the drying up of the Euphrates. And the symbolic river Euphrates is said, in connection "with the fall of symbolic Babylon, to be dried up." Rev. 16:12.
    Each is compared to a stone cast into the water. "Thus shall Babylon sink and shall not rise." er. 51:64. "Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down." Rev. 18:21.
    Now let us inquire what is represented by the symbol. As originally planted by Jesus and his apostles the church was a "chaste virgin espoused to one husband, even Christ." For some time she maintained her purity and suffered persecution of the world, but gradually became enamored of the world and the prospects it offered, and finally united with it, constituting the system of Papacy. This system church, living in union with the world constitutes "the abomination"--"the harlot," and the name Babylon, meaning confusion is applicable because the world is called a beast and the church
    a woman. This then was the union of the woman and the beast which
    is expressly forbidden in type. (Lev. 18:23. "It is confusion.") We
    feel sure that we have the name Babylon properly applied since in
    Rev. 17 we see the church seated on the beast--i.e. supported by and
    controlling the world. "And in her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and abomination of the earth." Rev. 17:5.
    The `following verse` shows that in her apostate condition she was Anti--(against) Christ, for she was drunken with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus. Mark me--I do not say that all the members of the Catholic church became abominations to the Lord, but that the Papacy as a SYSTEM--church-state organization is here pictured. And we must go further and implicate, (not the individual members, but the church systems) other churches united to the Empires of earth. Every church claiming to be a chaste virgin espoused to Christ, but in reality united to and supported by the world (beast) we must condemn as being in scripture language a harlot
    church. To illustrate: The Episcopal is the established church of
    England--the Greek church, of Russia --the Presbyterian church, of
    Scotland--the Lutheran, of Norway, &c. The true church composed of
    all who love the Lord Jesus in truth and sincerity whether in or out of these organizations, who wait for the coming Bridegroom, he recognizes; but she that is joined to another he calls an abomination--a harlot. These are off-shoots from the Papacy. She was a harlot and the mother of harlots and we mean no disrespect to fellow christians when we term their church systems the daughters, and therefore parts of the system of confusion--Babylon.
    But you will say--Our churches in this country particularly, are not parts of the Babylon, because they are not church-state organizations. Wait a moment; Let us inquire: Is our church--Baptist, Methodist or which ever, is it a chaste virgin or not? Does she live with the world, or separate from the world? We believe that every true church member loyal to the coming Bridegroom, feels with shame and pain that the nominal church is unfaithful to her espousal and is locked in the embrace of the world.
    She still bears the name of Christ and claims to be his. She claims to be desirous of knowing and doing what would please the Lord, but actually studies and does what will please the world. She has a form of Godliness but really is far from God-like-ness. Who studies as carefully, or obeys more implicitly the world's dictates as to propriety of dress and etiquette than professors of Christianity? Everything is done with an eye to the world's approval. The sermon must be such as will please and entertain
    carnally minded men of the world, for they give tone and character
    and backing to the organization.
    These must be trustees and stewards and be made to feel an interest in
    her and give largely of their wealth. No matter how obtained, wealth she wants and wealth she must have. She has commenced the adaptation
    of herself to the ideas of the world, and cannot go back. She felt that she must erect a grand church building with the tallest spire, and that every inch she added to the spire and every dollar added
    to the cost of building would help draw to her bosom some of the
    world's children with bags of gold. She lives luxuriously with the world, and is supported by the world. Her homage to the world becomes almost a necessity when it is remembered that he really built the temple of fashion in which she professes to worship God but really bows to mammon. The world though caressing and flattering, wants the interest on the church mortgage, and if the church
    cannot think of a way to get it scripturally, he has plans for festivals, grab games and church theatricals. She hesitates for a moment only, to thus disgrace and prostitute herself. The money must be raised. It would be useless to ask the Lord for it since she disregarded his wishes by contracting the debt. Necessity knows no law, and though the pure ones rich in faith, protest and weep for her condition, yet they are the poor of this world, and the poor of
    the worldly church seldom occupy a church office of any influence, and
    their protests and entreaties are drowned by the exultant songs and
    shouts of the gay company who "glory in their shame." Enjoying
    the world's smile they exclaim: "We are rich and increased with goods
    and have need of nothing, knowing not that they are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked." Rev. 3:17.
    "O that thou hadst known even in this thy day, the things which belong to thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes."
    Yes we believe the nominal church of to-day to be the Babylon of our text, which falls. It commenced to be a condition of confusion with the mother and it continues to the end of the age. The church, anxious for numbers and money, has offered every inducement to get members, particularly those of wealth. Socials are arranged at which the wives and daughters are expected (even though followers of Jesus) to so dress and act as to decoy and captivate worldly and carnally minded men. Soon such a one is called brother and urged to join the church. At first he feels shocked at being asked to become a
    church member. He has heard of people being converted, having a
    change of heart &c., but soon settles down to the thought that he is as good as others, that morality is the needed thing, and finding it to be a passport to the best society and an aid to business he does not long refuse. Now he is a member of church in good and regular standing; perhaps begins to like and feel interested in church affairs; becomes an officer in the Sunday school. Now he is looked upon as one of the principal members, a bell sheep, a representative
    of the flower of the flock. Who shall measure the baneful influence
    of this wolf in sheep's clothing upon the true sheep and lambs,
    supplanting truths with errors, ignoring true faith and trust and fostering and encouraging pride and worldliness, to say nothing of the effects upon the world when, it may be after having been years with the flock, this influential member is discovered to be a thief, who for years has systematically stolen from his employers, who had the utmost confidence in him because of his church connections? So the whole flock becomes suspected of being hypocrites, until now very few business men consider it any recommendation to an employee, to know that he is a christian. Nor should this be wondered at when we reflect that if any large defalcation or financial irregularity occurs you will find yourself as well as the infidel inquiring--Of
    what church is he a prominent member?
    In this way the church--"Babylon" --has become the habitation of
    devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean
    and hateful bird," as shown in our text.
    Jesus prophesied of this in parable when he said--"The kingdom of
    heaven (church) is like to a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his field, which, when grown, is the greatest among herbs
    and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in
    the branches thereof." Matt. 13:31. Verses 4 and 19 show us that
    the birds represent the devil. The church had a small beginning but
    afterwards spread out into many branches, and the representatives of
    the devil--hypocrites--wolves in sheep's clothing--came and lodged
    among the branches. But our text says: "Babylon is fallen." What
    is the fall and when will it occur? The fall we believe, will be from her exalted position of control and respect with the world, to one of ignominy and contempt. The fall we expect will not be instantaneous; it will have a beginning and will gather momentum as it falls until it is dashed to pieces. As to when her fall is due, we can perhaps learn something by examining the parallels
    between the Jewish and the Gospel church. As has been shown
    heretofore, the Law was a shadow of the Gospel, and the Jewish church under the law, a pattern of the christian church under the gospel;
    the one on the fleshly, the other on the spiritual plane, each called
    Israel.
    We know how their age ended with the advent of Christ in the flesh,
    so he is to be present in the end of this age, a spiritual body. We know that he called the end of that age a "harvest" to the fleshly house and that He also says: "The harvest is the end of this world" (age). You will recollect that their age from the death of Jacob (Israel) to Christ's baptism--the beginning of their harvest --was 1841-1/2 years, and that the parallels show that the harvest of
    this age and Christ's presence (a spiritual body) was due to commence
    in the fall of 1874, or 1841-1/2 years, from the spring of A.D. 33 when Jesus (our Israel) died.
    As the proclamation of Jesus as the present king and bridegroom
    was made to fleshly Israel for three and one-half years from his baptism to his crucifixion but heeded by but few of that church, so we believe a similar work was done in the midst of the Gospel church with similar results. As had been foretold by the prophet: "He shall be a stone of stumbling to both houses of Israel. Both stumbled at the manner of his coming. The Jew expected splendor and majesty, overlooking the fact that he must first be the man of sorrows and acquainted with grief, and by the grace of God taste death for every man.
    The Gospel church expected to see him coming in all his glory,
    whereas scriptures teach that when he appears in glory we will be with
    him and appear with him; that "The Lord my God shall come and all thy
    saints with thee." They overlooked the fact that he taught that he would first harvest the earth and separate wheat from tares--true children from hypocrites--before he would cause them to "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." Many have stumbled, only a few recognize that we are living "in the days of the son of man." (Luke 17:26.) As at the end of his three-and-one-half year's ministry, Jesus wept over that church, gave them up and said: "Your house is left unto you desolate," so we believe that at the parallel
    point of time--the spring of 1878, the nominal gospel church was
    given up and their house left desolate. Until the harvest of their age, all outward Jews--"wheat and chaff" were spoken to and of as Israel but Jesus did a separating work--"His fan is in his hand" to winnow the chaff from among the wheat and when the work of separation is accomplished the wheat only is recognized. So here true and false grow side by side in the church and together they are nominally "The
    kingdom of Heaven"--"Let both grow together until the harvest"-- but in the harvest of this age "He will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend," &c. Matt. 13:30,41. But since the spring of 1878 we believe that the nominal church is cast off and now only the wheat--"the little flock"--is to be considered the church and we believe this to be the date of the beginning of the fall of Babylon church, the parallel to the date of the fall of the church of the
    Scribes and Pharisees--hypocrites, who encompassed sea and land to
    make one proselyte." Their fall was gradual, so is Babylon's.
    This rejection of the nominal-- Babylon church--by the Lord seems
    to be illustrated in the picture of the church in its seven stages. Rev. 3:16. The seventh or last boasting of her being rich, increased in goods, &c., is pronounced by the Lord poor, naked, miserable, wretched and blind, and is spewed from his mouth. Once she was the mouth-piece of God; he spoke and taught through her, but now she is spewed out, "Babylon is fallen." Who cannot recognize that Babylon is now falling in the esteem of the world, which points to its children as more honorable, honest and faithful than the many Pastors and great ones in the church, of whose fall into great sins we hear almost daily.
    The public press now takes every advantage to sneer at, and compare
    the lives and acts of christians with infidels--thus saying--"How is the mighty fallen?"
    There was much wheat in the Jewish church, when given up, so
    too there is much wheat among the chaff and tares of the Babylon church. As God cared for and separated every true grain of wheat in that given up church (among them was Paul) and called them out into the true Gospel church, so now in this harvest he cares for every grain and now calls to them by his word--Rev. 18:4.

    "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE,that ye be not partakers of her sins and that ye receive not of her plagues."
    Do you advise us to disconnect ourselves from the church? I advise
    you to be separate from the world. If the church with which you are
    connected, lives in adulterous union with the world, you must, if you
    would keep your garments white, leave her, "hating even the garments
    spotted by the flesh." Jude 23. With her condition, you can have
    no fellowship nor communion and the words of Paul 2 Cor. 6:15,18,
    would apply to you: "What concord hath Christ with belial?
    What agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the
    temple of the living God."... "Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord and touch not the <unclean thing,>
    and I will receive you." If on the contrary you associate with a company who live separate from, and endeavor to keep themselves unspotted from the world and bearing the fruits of the spirit--meekness, gentleness, patience, Godliness, brotherly-kindness
    &c., be assured it is no part of Babylon. "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together as the manner of some is, and so
    much the more as ye see the day approaching," but, "building up
    yourselves in the most holy faith ...keep yourselves in the love
    of God." But we have a standing as individuals aside from our church
    standing. As individuals we have become joined to Christ and recognize him as our head and director. We have professed to have died to the world and to have become alive toward God through Jesus. Is our life conduct in harmony with our covenant with Christ? Are we entirely his? Is it our meat and drink to do his will? The profession is vain unless it is true. "His servants you are, to whom you render service." Our day is one of peculiar temptation from the world. If in business, it seems to require every moment and every energy, and we are in danger of being swallowed up by the cares of this life which press upon us every moment. Remember Jesus' words: "Ye cannot serve God and Mammon."--"Be not overcharged with the cares of this life." Living in the world be not of it.


    ____________________________________
    That's my story and I'm sticking to it! . http://www.food4jws.org/testimonies/rr144.htm

  • KJV
    KJV

    Nice post!

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    RR
    Maybe you can help me.
    I was accessing the Russell stuff through www.agsconsulting.com.
    But the stuff seems to have disappeared.
    Know a link where i can access the old WTs
    ???
    as in Russells time?

    Its hard isnt it, We accuse the dubs of selective quotation of their own material with the intent to mislead. Yet we are forced to selectively quote them ourselves because of length of post and duration of readers attention span.
    There is no substitute for personal research, as in extensive, in context reading.
    Wonder how many people on this site have actually DONE that?

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    there are PLENTY more prophecies than just the dates, just like you said.

    My personal favorite is the statement JW's made to Hitler in that famous letter, (paraphrase)

    "Stop persecuting jehovah's Witnesses, or God will kill you and your Nazi Party."

    Well, God did neither.

    BEFORE YOU TRY AND REMOVE THE STICK FROM MY ARSE, REMOVE THE TELEPHONE POLE FROM YOUR OWN ARSE.

  • RR
    RR

    RF, sorry, that site is down, because the webmaster, a Bible Student, relocated to the Ukraine, "to serve where the need was great". Sorry, I just couldn't help quoting the Society. But yes, Allen Springer is was the webmater did relocate to the Ukraine to help the Bible Students in that part of the world. Not sure if the site will be up later. There is a CD ROM that has ALL of Russell's writings obtainabvle from the Bible Students, these program has the original Watchtowers and NOT the Reprints. go to biblestudents.net and check out software, it's called Berean Bible Studies, it's aonly about twenty bucks or so.

    Here's the direct link http://www.biblestudents.net/software/bbs.htm

    ____________________________________
    That's my story and I'm sticking to it! . http://www.food4jws.org/testimonies/rr144.htm

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Thanks RR.
    I just KNEW you were the man to ask!
    One of our dear sisters on this site sent me a CD of the rutherford 1920s Watchtowers.
    Theyre great!
    should take me a few days to get a handle on that little lot.

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Refiners fire asks: " Does anyone see evidence of an imminent U.N.
    attack upon world religion?"

    No, but through the years we have seen numerous attacks upon the
    U.N. by the Watchtower Society.

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    yeah, and after all those horrible things theWT said about the U.N , they STILL let them use their Library!
    Now thats tolerance!

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Another of the "Forgotten Statements"

    The WT of May 15, 1969, says that Russia is the King of the North for the end times .Much evidence is given in support of this notion:

    As we peer closely into the book of Daniel to learn of further things that were prophesied to occur in our day.. of a long-drawn-out warfare between opposing governments called "the king of the north" and "the king of the south," running from the days of ancient Greece down to our day. But who are these kings in our day? The facts of history in fulfillment of this reliable prophecy show the ruling factors of totalitarianism, particularly world communism, to be the FINAL "king of the north" and the ruling factors of democracy, particularly the Anglo-American combine, as the last "king of the south."-Dan. 11:1-35....
    Years in advance the inspired prophecy foretold that "the king of the north" would reject the religious gods formerly worshiped by the peoples in his domain and would worship another god. Notice how accurately Daniel foretold this: "But to the god of fortresses, in his position he will give glory; and to a god that his fathers did not know he will give glory by means of gold and by means of silver and by means of precious stone and by means of desirable things."-Dan. 11:38.
    16 Who is the "god of fortresses," in our day? Modern, scientific militarism! Technical science has become a god to "the king of the north."...
    The WT then falls into the same trap that so many other Christian 'prophets' who made predictions, regarding Russia, fell into:
    Daniel explains: "He will certainly prove successful . . .. . . He will certainly enter into the lands and flood over and pass through. . . . He will keep thrusting out his hand against the lands; . . . He will actually rule over the hidden treasures of the gold and the silver."-Dan. 11:36, 39-43.
    As we consider world events in the past few years, we can see the amazing fulfillment of these words before our very eyes! "The king of the north" seized Poland, then Eastern Germany and Hungary; and many other countries of eastern Europe have come under Communist domination, as have mainland China, North Korea and North Vietnam. And now "the king of the north" seeks control over South Vietnam...
    So WT, wrong again!!!

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