Another Watchtower Lie?

DakotaRed

Application of "Two Witnesses" in the Congregation
"The assertion has been made that Jehovah's Witnesses take no action when an allegation of child abuse comes to the attention of the elders unless the accusation is verified by two separate witnesses, and that's just simply not true."

Page 108 and 109 of the Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All The Flock (Elders Manual), contains the following instructions:

“Before forming a committee, elders determine if the accusation has substance.”

“It must Scripturally be an offense serious enough result in Disfellowshipping.”

“There must be either two witnesses or a confession of wrongdoing.”

On page 111, additional counsel is given under the heading “What kind of evidence is acceptable?”

The very first entry under the above heading is:

“There must be two or three witnesses, not just persons repeating what they have heard; no action can be taken if there is only one witness. (Deut. 19:15; John 8:17).

“Strong circumstantial evidence, such as pregnancy or evidence (testified to by at least two witnesses) that the accused stayed all night in the same house with a person of the opposite sex (or in the same house with a known homosexual) under improper circumstances, is acceptable.”

“The testimony of youths may be considered, it is up to the elders to determine if if the testimony has the ring of truth to it.”

“If there are two or three witnesses to the same kind of of wrongdoing but each one is a witness to a separate incident, their testimony can be considered.”

“Such evidence may be used to establish guilt, but it preferable to have two witnesses to the same occurrence of wrongdoing.”

On page 120, under the heading Judicial Committee Hearing Procedure, we find:

“Is there sufficient evidence to establish by two witnesses or otherwise that the person is clearly guilty of serious wrongdoing? (Unit 5 (b) p. 111) Isolate specific offenses and available evidence.”

It appears to me that the Watchtower has thrown up another smoke screen and are lying about their own procedures. Nowhere do I find any exclusion from the two witnesses for any reason, much less child abuse.

emphasis added

Marilyn

::::::::::::::::::::It appears to me that the Watchtower has thrown up another smoke screen and are
lying about their own procedures. Nowhere do I find any exclusion from the two
witnesses for any reason, much less child abuse.

It's like on that radio program recently when JR Brown was asked if the Org "discourages" voting? Brown said "NO"! Followed by 5 minutes of waffle about God's Kingdom - that only a Jdub could understand to mean ABSOLUTELY NO VOTING.

Geez I must be dumb coz I really don't understand this need for deception. What happened to "let your yes mean yes and your no mean no"? They should have the courage of their convictions, after all, isn't Jehovah himself directing the preaching work?

Marilyn

tdogg

Funny how a child claiming to have been molested has no substantial evidence, but staying overnight in the same house with a known homosexual or person of the opposite sex is acceptable as proof.

AlanF

The fact that the Society does not normally allow two witnesses to separate events of molestation to convict a molester is proved by the Fitzwater case that was mentioned on Dateline. Fitzwater was convicted on several counts of molestation and the Society itself brought forth information about 17 of his victims. He is in prison, but remains undisfellowshipped -- on the instructions of the Legal Department in New York -- because of the "two witnesses" rule.

AlanF

deddaisy

"There must be EITHER two witnesses or a confession of wrongdoing."
(Emphasis added)

In order to disfellowship, or believe the victim?

Didn't the WTS acknowledge on "Dateline" that if a JW "confessed" to wrongdoing that he would be forgiven and not disfellowshipped?

I even wonder what they would do in the HIGHLY UNLIKELY EVENT in which there WERE two witnesses and the molester confessed to a problem and repented?

You would think that if this organization had, out of ALL the alleged molestations, NOT ONE SINGLE CASE ON FILE in which there WERE two witnesses to a molestation, they would be responsible enough to realize that this policy is in dire need of a "reality check."

deddaisy

"He is in prison, but remains undisfellowshipped..."

This means that a Witness could Aassociate with HIM, a convicted child molester, but NOT with the father in Calgary that is trying to sustain his daughter's life.....

TheOldHippie

I will once again, though, state that in this respect the Manual is outdated. At meetings for elders at circuit conventions; during the circuit servants' visits; at the elders' ministry school; as well as information received through letters from the Society - thru all of these channels, the information has been given that in child molestation cases, one witness or victim in each of two or more different cases make up the sufficient number of witnesses to have the molestor convicted.
Since these letters are not handed out and / or not allowed to be copied, I guess some of you will claim they are non-existant, that I just make this up - but I don't. A one-to-one serial molestor is treated as a being-witnessed-by-may molestor.
Whether congregation so-and-so follows this, is another matter, but the guidelines have been given, so they are without excuse.
As for this whole topic, given that the Dateline isn't aired in Europe, I find it most disturbing, and think the Society has handled the thing most unfortunately. Bowen, Anderson etc. must have known what was coming when they went out public in such a way, but what else could they do, when there was no response. No matter whether the Society has played by the book or seemingly have done no mistakes, in the public eye they have made huge crooks of themselves. I think it is strange that no member of the Governing Body uses the possibility to comment and "set things straight" from their point of view, but in stead hide behind one spokesman (who like all spokesmen is very easy to shoot, as he is in no position to change guidelines, but can only mechanically repeat what he is told to state) or also behind "no comments".
Most unfortunate indeed.

DakotaRed

thru all of these channels, the information has been given that in child molestation cases, one witness or victim in each of two or more different cases make up the sufficient number of witnesses to have the molestor convicted.

Why not tell that to all the victimized lambs out there who have been disfellowshipped. All the Society needed do was acknowledge that their handling in the past has been atrocious and show proof they have acted upon it. That is all the victims want. That is all Bill Bowen is asking for. Needed reform, not lip service.

Next question! If what you propose is actually true, why are whistle blowers being disfellowshipped and the pedophiles reinstated and coddled?

Instead of all the denials and back patting they do to each other, acknowledge the truth and beg God's forgiveness and right the wrongs they have done in the past. Wouldn't that be the Christian thing to do?

As for the Edlers Manual being outdated, my copy is the 1991 version. If such a letter as you suggest exists, showing it to Dateline could have gone a long way to satisfying others.

cornish

I tackled my father a JW elder about this,he was furious,but said that the reason was that they have to be very carefull because if they wrongly accuse someone they could be sued for slander.

The real point is that it is not up to elders to act as police or accuser,any cases should be handed to the police to deal with whether a judicial commitee acts or not.
I can remember sitting at sevice meetings and how they would ramble on about how much better it was to handle things in the congregation and not involve the authorities lest reproach be upon Jehovah's name.
NO EXEMPTIONS WERE MENTIONED.

LyinEyes

Very good point , TDogg!!! Blows my mind... cant think of
any more to say .

Another Watchtower Lie?

Share this